How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

[AsukaisLiterallyMe]

On the nose that sounds interesting, but I couldn't consider it bittersweet (nor did it hit any notes for me) as he got the waifu in his Jesuschrist afterlife.

At the cost of everyone he loves either being dead or a universe apart from him XD

I'd take that trade.

Hell, being an immortal soul sounds nice right now.

[Axx°N N.]

There are stories where the dialogue is too forced (it turns into a speech) to convey a message. This doesn't really apply to 3.0+1.0, where the message is pretty clear, but the dialogue is relatively subtle.

I'm not sure I agree. The scenes between Shinji and his friends leaves pretty much zero room for confusion regarding the way it pigeonholes them into therapy chair archetypes. Rei needs to define herself on her own terms, Kaworu needs to seek his own happiness, etc. The dialogue is analytical in a cursory way to the point that it resembles fan writeups, I don't see where subtlety or room to imagine comes in at all.

[BernardoCairo]

I think it goes beyond "a boy and a girl standing together".
They're flirting. Not only that, but Shinji is playing along with Mari. He's making some moves. A first in the franchise, if I'm not mistaken. Way back in NGE, it was established that he is a reactive character more than anything. I mean, episode 15 is all about that really.
The train station sequence is there not only to show how Shinji has grown, but also to make sure the audience understands that he has broken free of this reactive role and is now a more active person. It's the culmination of his behavior throughout the entirety of the movie's last act and is a scene with Mari, a new character. She flirted with him and then took his hand and guided him into a new world, a new beginning. We all know that holding hands like that has somewhat of a special meaning in Japan (particularly in the anime sphere of things, which Evangelion is a part of).
With all this, I don't think it's a stretch to think that this scene was made to have some romantic connotation. I think it's just natural. He moved away from the other girls and is flirting and holding this girl's hand. It is what it is.

[MsenjaKagami]

Personal taste, but I much prefer this to american media that spoonfeeds you the meaning with heavy-handed unsubtlety & everyone talks like they're trying to get a good grade in therapy

That last bit is how I see all the instrumentality scenes, though. I mean, the dialogue with Kaworu might as well have thrown the term "codependence" in and been about as overt. I prefer ambiguity too, but that's not to say going for ambiguity is always successful.

There are stories where the dialogue is too forced (it turns into a speech) to convey a message. This doesn't really apply to 3.0+1.0, where the message is pretty clear, but the dialogue is relatively subtle.

I'm not sure I agree. The scenes between Shinji and his friends leaves pretty much zero room for confusion regarding the way it pigeonholes them into therapy chair archetypes. Rei needs to define herself on her own terms, Kaworu needs to seek his own happiness, etc. The dialogue is analytical in a cursory way to the point that it resembles fan writeups, I don't see where subtlety or room to imagine comes in at all.

I'm a little confused, are you saying "the kids' character arcs' resolutions were straightforward and direct, and therefore were bad" or "their resolutions were unambiguous and conclusive, outside of being open-ended, and that's fine"? Cause I agree with the latter but not so much with the former.

[nerv bae]

Compare with the handhold with Kaworu from Q - im not getting into the romantic vs platonic can of worm because its irrelevant, but it was an "Emotional bonding" gesture. Its slow, meaningful and lingered on in detail as the wind plays in Kaworu's hair. They are facing each other.

I love the idea of this comparison, but I think the second Q handhold I found in Shinji's quarters works a bit better than the first windswept one below.

SPOILER: Show

Lol or is there a third handhold in Q?

[Axx°N N.]

I'm a little confused, are you saying "the kids' character arcs' resolutions were straightforward and direct, and therefore were bad" or "their resolutions were unambiguous and conclusive, outside of being open-ended, and that's fine"? Cause I agree with the latter but not so much with the former.

More of the latter, but I wasn't trying to make a quality assessment or draw a connection between either being inherently good or bad. I was just disagreeing on the framing and language used, because outside of whatever subjective reactions you have to the material, the material seems to me to be very intentionally straightforward.

[Kendrix]

Compare with the handhold with Kaworu from Q - im not getting into the romantic vs platonic can of worm because its irrelevant, but it was an "Emotional bonding" gesture. Its slow, meaningful and lingered on in detail as the wind plays in Kaworu's hair. They are facing each other.

I love the idea of this comparison, but I think the second Q handhold I found in Shinji's quarters works a bit better than the first windswept one below.

I think I got it mixed up in my head which one had the closeup but thanks for adding the gifts to illustrate the point.
Two of these say 'emotional bonding gesture', slow & lingered on & the participants facing each other;

The other says 'Shin-chan is Big & Strong now' & the cinematography & poses emphasize that - thanks to your gif we can see how Mari is even pulled a little downwards when he stands up & he gets in front of her right away so that she is even a little surprised:
His earlier reluctance & disbelief is transformed into determination.

Though I think this may also be considered something of a miscalculation on Anno's part, like Shinji does call Mari 'cute', as a sassy confident thing, basically just firing back at her for her own teasing instead of being flustered.

but in the context that it's the last scene it could be/ has been taken by some as an intentional implication of what happens next.
But that's only if you take this in isolation & ignore everything else.
- & at this point we've seen for 3 movies that Mari's lack of personal space sense doesn't mean anything/ is just a quirk. Unless you wanna postulate that she is also fucking Asuka & they're one big polycule xD
Plus, Shinji is probably intended to be copying Kaji here or sort of recall him in a 'his memory lives on in the next generation' kind of way.

The one Mari shows emotional attachment to is Asuka, even in the scenes where she interacts with Shinji shes like "Please save Asuka", "kudos for acting mature towards Asuka" etc. plus she loses it & competely drops the silly act when Asuka gets eaten.
For all her strength & optimism, it would probably be harder to keep up if she hadn't had a friend with her all those years.

Everything else about it says 'open ending, decide for yourself', explicitly not telling us what exactly happens to everyone, & nothing in the movie builds up towards pairing them or anything.

The person who is Shinji's big inspiration (again, just in general, not getting into the platonic/romantic can of worms here) is arguably Rei.
She's the one who motivates him to snap out of his funk, get on the wunder and confront Gendo (he even sees a flashback of her right before that, & she's the only one shown with a speck of color)

Her, as well as Touji & Kensuke.

IMHO the scene where Shinji talks with adult Touji about the patients he couldn't save is one of the most important parts in the movie. That's where Shinji really gets a role model for how to deal with the feelings of guilt & responsibility that he's been amassing & contraproductively reacting to ever since the Bardiel incident.
He didn't have that before. (cf. the new dialogue in 2.0 where Gendo tells him to grow up & Shinji is like "How?" since Gendo sure didn't teach him. )

[Konja7]

The person who is Shinji's big inspiration (again, just in general, not getting into the platonic/romantic can of worms here) is arguably Rei.
She's the one who motivates him to snap out of his funk, get on the wunder and confront Gendo (he even sees a flashback of her right before that, & she's the only one shown with a speck of color).

Specifically, Shinji's big inspiration is Rei Q.

Although Rei II has a Tsubame doll (implying she has Rei Q memories), it's pretty clear Shinji considers her different from Rei Q. In the Instrumentality, Shinji even mentioned Rei Q finding her place in Earth as an example for Rei II.

This adds certain tragedy since Rei Q (her biggest inspiration) couldn't return.

[MsenjaKagami]

IMHO the scene where Shinji talks with adult Touji about the patients he couldn't save is one of the most important parts in the movie. That's where Shinji really gets a role model for how to deal with the feelings of guilt & responsibility that he's been amassing & contraproductively reacting to ever since the Bardiel incident.
He didn't have that before. (cf. the new dialogue in 2.0 where Gendo tells him to grow up & Shinji is like "How?" since Gendo sure didn't teach him. )

Huh, I never made that connection before but yeah you're right. I had seen elsewhere someone mention that adult!Touji was like a surrogate father figure to Shinji in the same way adult!Kensuke and adult!Hikari were to Asuka and Rei Q respectively, but until now I thought that didn't really fit just cause of how much more screen time Shinji spent with Kensuke during the village scene. But in this light, yeah that makes perfect sense.

This adds certain tragedy since Rei Q (her biggest inspiration) couldn't return.

So there's two ways I've come to think of this. The first is that the Rei in this last sequence isn't just the original Rei II from 1.0 and 2.0 with Rei Q's memories, but more of a "Rei Unified"; by which I mean she's more like sort of a representation of the 'idea' of Rei Ayanami, and also the combination of all previous iterations of her character from before (borrowing from the part where both Shinji and Gendo have become aware of their past iterations through the Anti-Universe. While Rei doesn't have an more explicit acknowledgement that she also has these memories like they do, I think the sequence during which all the title cards from the show and other movies are shown implies that she does as well). Reason I bring this up is because of this one post I saw that explained that the reason Rei has such a short Instrumentality scene compared to Asuka and Kaworu is that it's because the entire Rei Q sequence in the first act of the movie is her Instrumentality scene. Rei Q's whole arc is about her realizing, for Rei as a character overall, that her assumption that she only existed to serve others' purposes was wrong, and that she can find her own purpose and place she belongs for herself, and Shinji bringing this up to Rei II during her scene in Instrumentality is essentially a reminder for her of what she has already learned before through Rei Q (by gaining her memories, but not necessarily having internalized them yet). This is also why (or at least is my rationalization) for why Shinji didn't give Rei Q her own unique name; because while she was a different person from Rei II, she's also more so a part/stage in "Rei's" (the overall character) journey as a character. So Shinji calling her Ayanami in the end wasn't so much him denying her her own identity, but more an apology for not previously recognizing her for the person she is and returning the identity he once denied her before.
TLDR: it's less that Rei Q couldn't return and more so that she doesn't need to, because she lives on through the final "combined" Rei, and because her narrative purpose was to be the the turning point/realization Rei needed to finally be free of her preconceptions of her own existence and to choose her own life in the world without Evangelions.

The second (which is a lot less explanation and a lot more just cope) is that it's never actually directly stated that Rei Q can't come back (all the implications that she couldn't are both indirect and technically subjective statements by characters that could potentially be wrong), so for all we know, Rei Q did return alongside Rei II and they became sisters (Rei II returns as an adult like Asuka while Rei Q returns as her teenage little sister) or something. And I mean it's not like this movie is ever going to get an official continuation (nor should it) to contradict this extrapolation (along with the movie being open-ended intentionally in general as previously discussed).


Anyway this kinda got away from the original topic, so to bring it back to that for a minute(since I never actually gave my opinion on that): I'm fine with it tbh, and I understand and more or less accept that this is the only way this movie could have really ended. But that's also probably because, like Chris and Kendrix, I don't see the ending as necessarily hardcoded as romantic. I acknowledge there's absolutely intended romantic subtext and that it's not a fluke that the scene plays out the way it does in such a way that would evoke such a reading. But at the same time, it is a bit of a stretch to say that Mari and Shinji really have anything resembling romantic chemistry after what was about less than half an hour of shared screen time (i didn't actually check, pls don't attack me), and to presume that the ending is meant to indicate that they're now in a romantic relationship is, well, silly imo (and as Kendrix pointed out, there's more than enough evidence to argue against the idea that the only interpretation is that it's romantic). That's not to say that the potential isn't there, but personally I'm perfectly fine with reading it as platonic as that makes the ending make more sense and be more satisfying to me, so that's the one I'm going with.

All that said, there is a small part of me that is still alittle bit salty that my team didn't "win" (not that I expected it to), if only for the fact that if she was the one offering her hand to help Shinji up at the station it would've perfectly bookended with the ending of 1.0 (I mean ok yeah, technically the bookend is still there in that it's the same gesture regardless of the participants and also at the end of her Instrumentality scene it's her initiating the gesture with Shinji but still).

[Konja7]

So there's two ways I've come to think of this. The first is that the Rei in this last sequence isn't just the original Rei II from 1.0 and 2.0 with Rei Q's memories, but more of a "Rei Unified"; by which I mean she's more like sort of a representation of the 'idea' of Rei Ayanami, and also the combination of all previous iterations of her character from before (borrowing from the part where both Shinji and Gendo have become aware of their past iterations through the Anti-Universe. While Rei doesn't have an more explicit acknowledgement that she also has these memories like they do, I think the sequence during which all the title cards from the show and other movies are shown implies that she does as well). Reason I bring this up is because of this one post I saw that explained that the reason Rei has such a short Instrumentality scene compared to Asuka and Kaworu is that it's because the entire Rei Q sequence in the first act of the movie is her Instrumentality scene. Rei Q's whole arc is about her realizing, for Rei as a character overall, that her assumption that she only existed to serve others' purposes was wrong, and that she can find her own purpose and place she belongs for herself, and Shinji bringing this up to Rei II during her scene in Instrumentality is essentially a reminder for her of what she has already learned before through Rei Q (by gaining her memories, but not necessarily having internalized them yet).

The reason why I don't believe the "Rei Unified" theory is because the Rei in the Instrumentality only act as Rei II. She has Rei II's internal conflict of being unable to imagine a life without the Eva. Even her voice seems to use Rei II's tone (Rei's VA has mentioned she has slightly different tones depending of the Rei).

Shinji recognize that Rei Q is Ayanami too (recognizing their connection), but he still treats Rei Q as a different Ayanami from Rei II in the Instrumentality. Also, he not only mention Rei Q to convince Rei II, he also mentioned Asuka.

That said, I agree that Rei II getting Rei Q memories helps her to accept Shinji's words in the Instrumentality. I just don't think this means Rei in the Instrumentality is a mix of both.

The second (which is a lot less explanation and a lot more just cope) is that it's never actually directly stated that Rei Q can't come back (all the implications that she couldn't are both indirect and technically subjective statements by characters that could potentially be wrong), so for all we know, Rei Q did return alongside Rei II and they became sisters (Rei II returns as an adult like Asuka while Rei Q returns as her teenage little sister) or something. And I mean it's not like this movie is ever going to get an official continuation (nor should it) to contradict this extrapolation (along with the movie being open-ended intentionally in general as previously discussed).

In 3.0, it's implied Rei Q doesn't have her own soul in her body (her soul would be Rei II). That's why I don't think Rei Q could return.

To be clear, although Rei Q doesn't seem to have a soul in her body, she develop her own personality and feelings.



PS: It's true that this is too far away from the topic of this thread.

[FriendlyTechpriest]

They're flirting. Not only that, but Shinji is playing along with Mari. He's making some moves...
The train station sequence is there not only to show how Shinji has grown, but also to make sure the audience understands that he has broken free of this reactive role and is now a more active person... She flirted with him and then took his hand and guided him into a new world, a new beginning. We all know that holding hands like that has somewhat of a special meaning in Japan...
With all this, I don't think it's a stretch to think that this scene was made to have some romantic connotation. I think it's just natural. He moved away from the other girls and is flirting and holding this girl's hand. It is what it is.

Spot on. I see a lot of anger and aggressive rejection at the mere thought that Mari and Shinji could be romantically entangled and rivers of text (especially on Reddit) are created to work in a justification towards that, or use an interview from the voice acting director as banner of proof. On Reddit, most of those who got seriously angry were mainly shippers, so while still a bit silly, it is at least understandable.

The thing is though, in my opinion whether they're actually dating or not in that particular scene is not important. Rewatching the Rebuilds, I think the movies, especially Thrice, must be taken at face value. They're tonally different than original Evangelion. They're its deconstruction and inversion of themes.
The point is, as already stated multiple times, that Shinji is now able to interact with women, to even flirt with them and not being scared/closed off. That he does it with Mari is obvious, since she's the harbinger of growth and she's the one that saved him, literally bringing colour back into his life at the end of the movie at the beach.
That the VA director (who isn't Anno, mind you) said that he didn't direct the scene with particular romantic intent isn't that much of a "proof" either, merely a potential interpretation. Again, it's not like the characters are married, they're two friends flirting. It's the script and scene itself that makes it potentially romantic (light flirting, holding hands in public in Japan, dialogue about "growing" etc.)

Mari and Shinji may or may not be together at the end of the movie. Doesn't matter. What matters is that it's possible it could happen and the scene and overall interactions (albeit sparse) between the two characters, lend themselves to that particular interpretation.
I still remember getting lambasted years ago when I expressed puzzlement at how EoE final scene was touted as "romantic and a symbol of love between Adam and Eve", while I always found that scene much more ambiguous and open. The idea of Adam and Eve actually hating each other is a very interesting concept, but I digress. If, instead of Mari, Asuka were to be with Shinji at the station, I believe nobody would deny its romantic subtext.
A non-romantic interpretation is absolutely possible and even suggested by the director (who still goes on to say that it's not definitive), but romantic interpretations have every reason to exist.

[Archer]

^ I agree that part of the “rejection” is purely due to the fact that it’s Mari, because objectively speaking their “relationship” (calling it even that is a massive overstatement) has like zero development or buildup.

[Axx°N N.]

The idea of Adam and Eve actually hating each other is a very interesting concept, but I digress.

I feel like this is as avoidant of EoE's ambiguity (including that afforded for the dreaded shippers) as anyone taking a hard line that Shin's ending is 100% romantic or non-. I'd understand the takeaway if it ended on Shinji actually strangling her to death, but the inclusion of his crying and a face caress seem to attenuate it and not by a little. Like, I personally don't read romance in the scene because by that point I feel they've been through too much and being on friend terms would be a more logical maturation following the mutually illuminating mind-screw, but to be fair there's as much to imprint romantically as there is with Shin's ending.

[AsukaisLiterallyMe]

The idea of Adam and Eve actually hating each other is a very interesting concept, but I digress.

I feel like this is as avoidant of EoE's ambiguity (including that afforded for the dreaded shippers) as anyone taking a hard line that Shin's ending is 100% romantic or non-. I'd understand the takeaway if it ended on Shinji actually strangling her to death, but the inclusion of his crying and a face caress seem to attenuate it and not by a little. Like, I personally don't read romance in the scene because by that point I feel they've been through too much and being on friend terms would be a more logical maturation following the mutually illuminating mind-screw, but to be fair there's as much to imprint romantically as there is with Shin's ending.

No there isn't.

There's a massive difference between ending with "Kimochi warui" (said by the most disgusted and worn sounding Asuka imaginable) and running away while holding your waifu's hand.

[Blockio]

I'm going to be entirely frank here, most of this argument seems to resolve around some people being unable to fathom a dude and a girl being on good terms without being romantically interested in one another, which I can't help but feel that it says more about the speaker than about the movie...

[AsukaisLiterallyMe]

Time to pull out the self defense then.

1. I don't ship characters.

2. It's a poor series of movies with a poor ending that gives the JC MC a waifu. Which has been the hill I've constantly been on.

3. I would be shipping Shinji and Asuka (or with Misato) if I believed a guy getting touched by a woman meant that they were DTF.

I know my posting history is scarce, but I believe I've posted enough to not come off as one of those you refer to in your post; needlessly reductive take.

But cést la vie.

[Blockio]

No, you very much come off as that.
If you dislike the movies so much, one does need to wonder if your own mental health and the productivity of discussion wouldn't increase if you spent less time talking about how bad they are and more time talking about anything else that you actually enjoy

[Axx°N N.]

I'm going to be entirely frank here, most of this argument seems to resolve around some people being unable to fathom a dude and a girl being on good terms without being romantically interested in one another, which I can't help but feel that it says more about the speaker than about the movie...

Or that two people can't be miserable but quite attached!

[FriendlyTechpriest]

I feel like this is as avoidant of EoE's ambiguity (including that afforded for the dreaded shippers) as anyone taking a hard line that Shin's ending is 100% romantic or non-.

Sure, I wasn't saying that's the ending, it's just a concept I had in my mind that could be applied to EoE ending. I didn't expand on it because it's OT

[C.T.1290]

I think Anno had made it apparent in Thrice that Shinji and Asuka just aren’t meant to be. He wants Asuka to move on from Shinji, and for Shinji to move on from her. So the whole relationship between is officially over, never again to be reunited.

So Mari is the only one available to him, which is evident at the last scene.

I know a lot of AsuShin shippers are upset about this, but it is what it is. And Anno wants those people to just move on.