Ikari Gendou: The Motives Behind the Man Behind the Motives

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

Hello all. I thought I'd dive right in with a topic and hopefully start a ripping good discussion.
I have been pondering over one of the most intriuging characters in Evangelion, Ikari Gendou. Clearly to ask just about anything would be going over well trodden ground, but I'll risk it.

What in your opinion was Ikari Gendou trying to accommplish with NERV and the Evas? The simple answer is he simply wished to meet his wife Yui again, but I find this explanation a little too simple for such a complex character.
Though I don't discount that meeting Yui was a part of his eventual plan. However, I feel that there was much more to Gendou's desire to instigate third impact in the way that he tried to do.

Gendou had a plan. There's no doubt about that. Fuyutsuki appears to have been aware of this plan, or at least most of it. Both were certainly aware of SEELE's plans, but I get the impression that the two plans different significantly. I'm under the impression that Gendou's version of third impact was more benevolent and(dare i say it?) altruistic than SEELE's evolution through distruction plans.
I'm wondering what people's thoughts on Gendou's secret senario are? What had he been up to for the last 15 years. How was Fuyutsuki involved. How did the plan conflict with SEELE's and what was Yui's part in it all?

I think perhaps a better understanding of this hidden agenda might lead to a better understanding of the series and of course Gendou himself(though of course, full understanding of anything in evangelion is beyond out mortal minds ). I'll post more of my own (outrageous and unsubstanciated) thoughts in the discussion.

[Dave]

Seele - Kill the Angels, kill the Eva's needed to kill the Angels, live happily ever after as one super-being.

Gendou + Yui - Stop Seele by any means.

Gendou Alone - Screw Seele over at the end by merging with Adam and Lilith, thus having full control of third impact. Then, kick everyone out back into the world and live happily ever after with Yui. Of course, Yui wasn't very fond of this idea, nor was Rei.

[DatDude]

On that last bit dave you forgetting somthing important. When Shinji was in control of instrumentality HE HAD TO LEAVE so every one else would have the chance to. If he stayed we were all boned. Gendo WAS willing to fuck over the whole human race to have his wife with him again.

[thewayneiac]

On that last bit dave you forgetting somthing important. When Shinji was in control of instrumentality HE HAD TO LEAVE so every one else would have the chance to. If he stayed we were all boned. Gendo WAS willing to fuck over the whole human race to have his wife with him again.

I don't think that this is correct. Gendo didn't want to be joined with Yui in Instrumentality, he wanted to be joined with her in Unit-01. Permanent Instrumentality wouldn't have been neccessary for this, just as no Instrumentality was neccessary for Yui to enter Unit-01 in the first place. Also, Shinji disolved into Unit-01 in Ep. 20 without Instrumentality in effect.

The big clue that Dave is right is in the confrontation between Gendo & Seele in EOE. Keel says, "We have no intention of casting aside our human forms merely to enter an Ark called EVA."

Why tell us what Seele's plan isn't, unless this is what Gendo's plan is? And what is an Ark? It's a temporary refuge where one rides out a storm and then emerges when it's all over.

Gendo wanted the souls of all mankind to shelter in the Evas (not in the Black Moon) during 3I, and then emerge and reembody. Seele wanted them to become one forever inside the Black Moon. Neither got their wish. Instrumentality was aborted, and Yui rejected Gendo from joining her (rather violently).

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

Was Gendou plan with Yui to simply stop third impact though? Perhaps to stop SEELE's version of it, but I think he and Yui were planning some form of third impact. Recall the scene (eps 24) with Gendou standing before Unit One, where we can see that the angel embryo has been merged with his hand.

G: The final Angel will soon appear. When we erase that, our hopes will come true.
Wait a little, Yui.

It appears that whatever Gendou was trying to accomplish in Terminal Dogma in EoE might have been known to Yui. (And whatever it was, the angels needed to be destroyed first).

Though I may be stating the obvious, isn't it the case that Yui's fatal accident was not an accident at all? In the scene before she "dies"(eps 21), we first see Gendou in his "glasses and hands" stare. Perhaps he was already resigned to her death at that point? Did they plan it all out together? (.... or did he just kill her as suggested in eps 16)

Thoughts anyone?

[thewayneiac]

Was Gendou plan with Yui to simply stop third impact though? Perhaps to stop SEELE's version of it, but I think he and Yui were planning some form of third impact. Recall the scene (eps 24) with Gendou standing before Unit One, where we can see that the angel embryo has been merged with his hand.

G: The final Angel will soon appear. When we erase that, our hopes will come true.
Wait a little, Yui.

It appears that whatever Gendou was trying to accomplish in Terminal Dogma in EoE might have been known to Yui. (And whatever it was, the angels needed to be destroyed first).

In order to understand all this you need to understand that EVA treats the prophesies concerning 3I contained in it's version of the Dead Sea Scrolls as fact, and all the characters who are familiar with them treat them that way. In other words it's an established fact in EVA that 3I is going to happen, so the 3 factions. Angels, Nerv, & Seele are all trying to make it come out their way. The Angels need to be destroyed for either Gendo or Seele's plan, because if an Angel causes 3I by getting to Adam, the lilim just die permanently. (No reembodying, no instrumentality.)

Though I may be stating the obvious, isn't it the case that Yui's fatal accident was not an accident at all? In the scene before she "dies"(eps 21), we first see Gendou in his "glasses and hands" stare. Perhaps he was already resigned to her death at that point? Did they plan it all out together? (.... or did he just kill her as suggested in eps 16)

Thoughts anyone?

You're quite correct; Yui entered Unit-01 on purpose. ("Mankind's bright future"). HERE is a thread on the A.N. forum where Reichu demonstrates that Yui did so at this time because she suspects that Seele knows she is actually working against them, and are arranging an "accident" for her.

[Reichu]

Yui didn't seem interested in just avoiding death at Seele's hands, but in being around long after humanity is extinct. How this one motivation of hers features into a bright future for anybody never made much sense to me, however. Christ, even for HER, about the most fun she's entitled to after she leaves Earth is to land on some distant, barren planet and let this whole mess start all over again.

[DatDude]

Gendo told Rei to " merge all sole into one then take me to yui's side" Doesn't this imply that ha wanted to be with her THROUGH instrumentality? Gendo wanted to be the one incontrol on instrumentality, but Rei handed that control to Shinji.

[thewayneiac]

Gendo told Rei to " merge all sole into one then take me to yui's side" Doesn't this imply that ha wanted to be with her THROUGH instrumentality? Gendo wanted to be the one incontrol on instrumentality, but Rei handed that control to Shinji.

Gendo is actually trying to do 2 things at once here, join Yui and stop 3I. But as I said, as 3I is inevitable, he has to start it in order to stop it.

[DatDude]

But if Shinji HAD to comback to reality to give everyone else a chance to how would gendo do what you say he was trying to? :roll:

[thewayneiac]

But if Shinji HAD to comback to reality to give everyone else a chance to how would gendo do what you say he was trying to? :roll:

Because it would have been Gendo in charge, instead of Rei in charge doing everything Shinji said. If someone who is effectively a god says, "The rest of you get out of here and reembody; I'm staying here.", that is what is going to happen.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

HERE is a thread on the A.N. forum where Reichu demonstrates that Yui did so at this time because she suspects that Seele knows she is actually working against them, and are arranging an "accident" for her.

I don't think that fear for her own life was the primary motivator behind Yui's actions. I think the whole scenario goes even deeper than that. Her plans with Gendou I think have an even earlier genesis. In support of this, maybe, is a seemingly throwaway remark by an unnamed technician in episode 12, during the harmonics test.

Maya: His harmonics and synchronization ratios are approaching Asuka's.
Ritsuko : It's a natural gift, isn't it?
Operator: He was definitely born to pilot the Eva.

If you see what I'm getting at here.

P.S.
Thanks, for a link to that thread. That park conversation would have taken a lot less time to understand if the subtitles on the DVD weren't so awful. No translation seems to have this scene in it. And a couple of other important ones are left out as well. Anyone know any good script translations?

[Reichu]

I think the fact that she was blacklisted led her to do the Contact Experiment when she did.

And Shinji wasn't exactly "born" to pilot an Eva. That ability of his is rather dependent on the fact that his mom's soul is inside one; it's not innate or anything. "It's not the sort of thing that comes naturally to me."

Long before ADV brought their DVD out, everyone was relying on bochan_bird translations of the NPC scenes, it still took forever to make sense of the Ashinoko flashback. Actually, in some cases, the ADV translations are an improvement over anything that was available beforehand.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

And Shinji wasn't exactly "born" to pilot an Eva. That ability of his is rather dependent on the fact that his mom's soul is inside one; it's not innate or anything. "It's not the sort of thing that comes naturally to me."

I don't mean that he was born to be good at piloting Eva.
I mean to say that the reason he was born at all, may have been to pilot Eva.

[DatDude]

But if Shinji HAD to comback to reality to give everyone else a chance to how would gendo do what you say he was trying to? :roll:

Because it would have been Gendo in charge, instead of Rei in charge doing everything Shinji said. If someone who is effectively a god says, "The rest of you get out of here and reembody; I'm staying here.", that is what is going to happen.

LOL This is never even hinted at in the anime.

[Reichu]

LOL This is never even hinted at in the anime.

Um... what part are you having trouble swallowing?

[DatDude]

The part were the anime hints in the slighest that the " rules " so to speak for the one controling instrumentality would be diffrent if Gendo was controling things instead of Shinji.

[Reichu]

The part were the anime hints in the slighest that the " rules " so to speak for the one controling instrumentality would be diffrent if Gendo was controling things instead of Shinji.

I'm not quite sure what the problem is... It didn't seem to be very mysterious that Gendo planned on controlling Instrumentality himself -- via Rei.

[DatDude]

I'm not quite sure what the problem is... It didn't seem to be very mysterious that Gendo planned on controlling Instrumentality himself -- via Rei.

The problem is that it was mentioned some though Gendo would have joined all soles into one via instrumentality and then sent every one back but himself and Yui. Wheither its them staying in instrumentality itself or inside unit-one I argued it was not possable. My reason was that in the 3I we see in EoE Shinji MUST return HIMSELF, inorder for everyone else to have the chance to do the same.

The argument is over wheither the "rules" so to speak would be diffrent with Gendo incharge.

I say NO.

[thewayneiac]

. My reason was that in the 3I we see in EoE Shinji MUST return HIMSELF, inorder for everyone else to have the chance to do the same.

Does it actually say that? Where does it say that Shinji couldn't have said "Rei, let's float here forever, but kick all these other people out."? Rei was doing whatever he said. Of course since Shinji realized almost instantly that instrumentality = non-existance he would never have considered this.

Also, I must reiterate:

SEELE 09:
We have no intention of giving up our human forms simply to enter the Ark called Eva

Fuyutsuki:
The Fruit of Life possessed by Angels,
And the Fruit of Wisdom possessed by humans...

(The Lance penetrates the core and merges with EVA-01 into the Tree of Life)

Fuyutsuki (off screen):
Having obtained them both, EVA-01 has become like a God.
And now it has been restored to the propagule of souls... the Tree of Life.
Will it become the Ark to save humankind from the nothingness of Third Impact?
Or the demon that destroys us all?
Our future lies in the hands of Ikari's son.

The Evas, or at the very least Unit-01, were to be an Ark where the souls would ride out 3I. These words can mean nothing else.

And as I said, Yui stayed disolved in Unit-01 for years with no instrumentality, so why not Gendo, or even Shinji?