Kaworu, Shinji, and Mother Figures

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Postby Ornette » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:54 pm

Note: This thread was entitled Kaworu/Adam & the Feminine Principle until about June 2006.
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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:54 pm

[EDIT/NOTE for 6/2006: The congenital intent of this thread is to dealve into -- however spastically -- somewhat 'unorthodox' ideas regarding Kaworu and vis relationship with Shinji, which involve the overarching theme of "Mother" and the role mothers/mother figures play in the story. An issue that may eventually come up is that of gender (a theme exemplified by Shinji, Shinji, Shinji, and the words, "You're a boy, aren't you?") and its possible relevance to this whole mess. Dealving specifically into femme-Kaworu -- the hypothesis of mine that Kaworu is physically female -- is not a priority.

*****

I am so going to regret this thread. :licks lips and sticks pins into her Reichu voodoo doll:

This thread prompted me to (in my usual "ADHD" manner) compile a "little reply" highlighting a point to which little attention is ever paid. But, after I posted it, it felt terribly out of place, so, I figured, "I have nothing to lose but my mind". Delete delete delete, create new thread...

No guarantee that I'll be following this one through anytime soon (do I ever?), but the initial crop should at least give people something to think about.

Keeping in mind what thread "inspired" this, here's a choice quote, just to take things "from the top" (as it were):

"After the End" Drama Track wrote:Kaworu: I'm Kaworu Nagisa. We meet again.
Asuka: Well hello, h0mo-boy.
Kaworu: I really wish you wouldn't make statements when you lack evidence for them.



And the evidence that suggests Shinji and Kaworu's relationship is at all sexual in nature is somewhat lacking.

Before anything else, it's worth keeping something in mind: Just who is Kaworu, aside from an Apostle with Lilim form? A vessel containing the salvaged soul of Adam:

Image

And who is Adam?

Episode #24 wrote:Kaworu: Adam. The entity who is our mother. Must those who are born from Adam return to Adam...?



Despite having the body of a 14-year-old boy (or so the orthodoxy goes, at least*), Kaworu is, fundamentally, none other than Adam herself �- the "divine mother" who birthed the Apostles, and originating from a race of humans billions of years back.

In EoE, Kaworu is placed among Rei and Yui to form a "Divinity Trinity":

Image

(And Rei forms a sub-trinity, but that's beside the point.)

In essence, these are the Lilim avatars of NGE's three Seeds of Life: Adam (=Kaworu), Lilith (=Rei), and, bridging the two, the up-and-coming Eva (=Yui). And they all "mother" Shinji (who is essentially the representative of the puny mortals) and act as sources of guidance, until the time comes when they must all leave him.

Although her soul was salvaged into another body after Second Impact, Adam's memories and identity appear to be very much intact. And, indeed, that includes the maternal component central to a Seed's existence -� which I think is a rather important and much-neglected aspect of the Kaworu character.

* That is, there is a possibility that the body may "match the soul" -� but this is a tale for another Lunar Cycle.

[CONTINUING...]

Originally posted on: 03.20.2006, 11:43 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:54 pm

From the "Shinji is Gay?" thread:

BatousEye wrote:Consider episode 24, where Karou invites Shinji to sleep togethor in the same bed. In the very next scene, they are naked in the shower room and Karou touches Shinji's hand. (The significance for this gesture is SEX, as one can see in the Cross-reference from ep.23 where Misato comes to Shinji in his room and says "This is all I can do for you...". She then touches his hand in the same manner.)



Just to be picky, the shower scene occurs before the Slumber Party.

Regarding the hand stuff...

Image

Image

...I wouldn't jump the boat by saying it's "all about sex". A very solid connection exists between the two shots �- but what is another question. The obvious difference is that Shinji outright rejects Misato* and pulls his hand away, but he accepts Kaworu's touch, even though he's not quite sure what to make of it.

Image

Image

Is physical contact between two people necessary sexual? Not at all. What about "love" (in this case, suki %?2;%?4Image?

Other folks have already answered that one.

For another question: What is one place where Misato failed?

Episode #26' wrote:Misato (voice):
I wasn't able to become Shinji's mother after all...



That failure may have some relevance to what's going on here.

To ask yet another: What does Kaworu really mean to Shinji? (And vice versa, for that matter...)

Kaworu and Shinji's relationship seems to function on a couple of "hidden" levels. Since a full analysis is far away on them thar mountaintops, allow me to draw your attention to some of the more fundamental connections. (And the tone of writing will not be completely serious, so don't expect it to be. Image )

* Perhaps because he's much more perceptive than people give him credit for being... :wink:

[CONTINUING...]

Originally posted on: 03.20.2006, 11:47 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:54 pm

In EoE, after the madness that is Giant Naked Rei ascending and harpies grotesquely mutating, Shinji is stuck inside his enormous, quadruple-winged mom �- probably one of the least fun places to be right about now -� unable to do diddly-squiddly-doo. (Since this is Yui's day as much as his. If not more so. Image )

Image

Image

"Gee. Thanks a lot, Mom. My day was total crap as it was, and now, because you thought it was such a great idea, what little that is left of my mind is being systematically beaten into a bloody pulp just in time for the Apocalypse."
"Oh, nonsense, Son. It's all part of growing up. Why, when I was your age..."
"... WAHHHHHHHhhhh! Leave me alone! I can't take it anymore!"

Image

Shinji begins to chant a phrase again and again: "Mou iya da" = "I can't take it anymore".

Image

For some inexplicable reason (...if you prefer), the camera focuses on a certain little cross, and whose sweet voice should appear out of nowhere but...

Kaworu: Mou, ii no kai?

This is a variation on one of those omnipresent Japanese phrases that can translate a few different ways depending on context. (Like "Mou ii!!" = "Enough already!") Reichu's current gut feeling is that we want the option, "Are you okay?" / "Will you be alright?" (But, then, I'm still learning.)

[CONTINUING...]

Originally posted on: 03.20.2006, 11:48 PM

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Postby CyberNinja5 [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:54 pm

Yeah I said that in the Shinji is gay post. I said that Kaworu isn't human and really doesn't have a gender or anything intimate for Shinji.

Originally posted on: 03.20.2006, 11:48 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:54 pm

Image

Image

(Oh, thanks, Shinji. As if we weren't getting enough of these creepy smiles from you-know-who as it was.)

Image

"I am enormous, pinkish, beautiful, and I love you from the bottom of my cotton-filled heart! (You should see what I really look like!)"

Image

Instead of answering Kaworu's question ("You okay, 'n' stuff?"), Shinji poses his own: "Soko ni ita no, Kaworu-kun?" = "You were there (all along), Kaworu-kun?" ("There" being, I would assume, "someone giant, naked, white, and very scary".)

Now, the rest of what's going on in this scene is very weird and part of my recent recurrent nightmares. So, instead of dwelling upon things like Yui-sama having core secx with the Spear of Longinus (and Shinji diggin' it), we shall seek out something slightly more relevant to the matter at hand...

[CONTINUING...]

Originally posted on: 03.20.2006, 11:49 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:55 pm

We'll get back to Giant Naked Kaworu's sole line in a bit. But, first, how about that, "You've been there (all along), Kaworu-kun?"... Does this bring any other scenes to mind?

"Are you stuck inside an Eva?"

Image

"Are you helpless and distraught?"

Image

"So... watcha gonna do?"

Image

Chant a repetitive phrase again and again, of course!: "Shinu no wa, iya" = "I don't want to die".

Some Mysterious Voice: "P'shaw. Let's not think like that. I know! We'll go for a walk on the beach instead!"

Image

Ah, that all-too-familiar shore... (We've seen this motif, like, how many times?)

Image

"I love you from the bottom of my cotton-filled heart!"

Ah... a somewhat indistinct but pleasantly familiar memory... Wait, who are you, again?

[CONTINUING...]

Originally posted on: 03.20.2006, 11:49 PM

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Postby CyberNinja5 [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:55 pm

Hey and did you realize that Gendou is teh biggest moran on the planet. The entire reason he started the 3rd Impact was to be reunited with Yui. Since it would combine all souls together didn't he realize that Yui's soul was in Eva Unit 1 and wouldn't be able to join together with the others.

Originally posted on: 03.20.2006, 11:50 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:55 pm

Forget the beach. Let's go for a walk in the park.

Image

"Mama. Koko ni ita no ne." = "Mama. So you were here (all along)?"

Image

"If by 'here' you mean 'this indigo-blooded, four-eyed abomination Mama created and had her metabiological essence devoured by in two parts'... yup. This is where it's all at!"

<insert>

Image

Image

"Mama!"

...

Image

"Uhhh... is that what's going on here? Is this... like... one of those repeating... motif-things?"

"What does your heart tell you?"

"That there's more to this than one paralleled scene... I think?"

Did I say I was going to get into GNK's sole bit of dialogue? Later, perhaps... Maybe we can go for another walk on the beach sometime, too.

:leaves her neonate thread to the wolves:

Originally posted on: 03.20.2006, 11:51 PM

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Postby Ornette [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:55 pm

CyberNinja5 wrote:Hey and did you realize that Gendou is teh biggest moran on the planet. The entire reason he started the 3rd Impact was to be reunited with Yui. Since it would combine all souls together didn't he realize that Yui's soul was in Eva Unit 1 and wouldn't be able to join together with the others.


Not sure why this was in this thread but...

I get the feeling that Gendo's version of 3I is different than the 3I that occured (possibly an extra step)
Gendo in 26' wrote:Adam and I are now as one... For this is the only way to be with Yui again.
The forbidden joining of Adam and Lilith.

(Rei's arm falls off)

There's no time... Your AT Field can no longer hold your shape.
Let's begin, Rei.
Release your AT Field, the barrier of your heart.
Complement your imperfect heart, leave your useless body...
Merge all souls into one.
[b]And then, take me to Yui's side.



Also, I'm pretty sure he knows that Yui=Eva-01

Originally posted on: 03.21.2006, 12:15 AM

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Postby LuigiHann [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:55 pm

http://www.evageeks.org/episod..._C329_b_mid.jpg
Wow, I didn't notice it before, but I love that the sketch seems to have been crumpled up and then smoothed out. That's perfect.

Originally posted on: 03.21.2006, 12:32 AM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:55 pm

Ornette wrote:I get the feeling that Gendo's version of 3I is different than the 3I that occured (possibly an extra step)



3I happens with both Instrumentality scenarios -- life "resets" so that souls can be freed from their physical bodies, and then you can gather all human souls up and do something with them. For Seele, that something is fusing everyone into one happy hive mind. (The Singular Perfect Entity.) For Gendo... well, it doesn't seem to involve fusing everyone into a big, happy hive mind. "Humans must advance to a new world. Ark called Eva. Death gives birth to nothing. Seele sucks. Yui, eat me."

LuigiHann wrote:Wow, I didn't notice it before, but I love that the sketch seems to have been crumpled up and then smoothed out. That's perfect.



Hmmm, I never really thought of it that way... Here's a big version.

Originally posted on: 03.21.2006, 01:09 AM

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Postby LuigiHann [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:55 pm

Hmm, perhaps I'm misinterpereting it, but the paper the sketch is on does seem to have a "crinkled" texture to it. I might be reading to much into it by assuming that it's been crumpled and uncrumpled to achieve that, as it could be something else entirely, but it does seem that it could be a visual metaphor for the way Asuka had tried to forget all her memories of her mother.

Originally posted on: 03.21.2006, 01:21 AM

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:55 pm

@Reichu
At last! Now I can stop biting my tongue in S/K threads. A well set out argument of the thesis.

@CyberNinja5
As he addresses Yui-in-Eva01 directly, I suspect he know exactly what he's about - the real trouble was that "you just can't get the staff these days" (Rei saying "Shan't!"). And that Yui had her own distinct secret agenda.

Originally posted on: 03.21.2006, 02:01 AM

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:55 pm

Reichu wrote:Instead of answering Kaworu's question ("You okay, 'n' stuff?"), Shinji poses his own: "Soko ni ita no, Kaworu-kun?" = "You were there (all along), Kaworu-kun?" (Over there, as opposed to over here. Uh, I'm sure you can figure out the "there" that he's talking about.)

Allow me to play dumb, and ask that you elaborate on what you're getting at here Image

Originally posted on: 03.21.2006, 08:24 AM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:55 pm

Shin-seiki wrote:Allow me to play dumb, and ask that you elaborate on what you're getting at here Image



Well... what's the question?

Mr. Tines wrote:@Reichu
At last! Now I can stop biting my tongue in S/K threads. A well set out argument of the thesis.



Biting your tongue about what? The "Kaworu = Adam = mother" part?

@CyberNinja5
As he addresses Yui-in-Eva01 directly, I suspect he know exactly what he's about - the real trouble was that "you just can't get the staff these days" (Rei saying "Shan't!"). And that Yui had her own distinct secret agenda.



You lost me here.

Originally posted on: 03.21.2006, 10:33 AM

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:56 pm

Reichu wrote:Well... what's the question?

(Over there, as opposed to over here. Uh, I'm sure you can figure out the "there" that he's talking about.)

So what is it that we're supposed to be able figure out? Sorry, it's just that the way you put that makes it seem that there's supposed to be more going on here than meets the eye, but maybe I'm reading more into that than you intended...

Originally posted on: 03.21.2006, 10:50 AM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:56 pm

Shin-seiki wrote:So what is it that we're supposed to be able figure out? Sorry, it's just that the way you put that makes it seem that there's supposed to be more going on here than meets the eye, but maybe I'm reading more into that than you intended...



Oh, sorry about that. I was mostly just babbling to myself there ("thinking out loud" about koko/soko/asoko). Pay it no mind... :edit edit:

Originally posted on: 03.21.2006, 11:05 AM

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Postby LuigiHann [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:56 pm

Huh. If Kaworu is both Child of Adam and Adam herself, that adds another hint of Jesusiness to the character, eh? I'm surprised that didn't occur to me before.

Originally posted on: 03.21.2006, 11:11 AM

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:56 pm

Reichu wrote:Biting your tongue about what? The "Kaworu = Adam = mother" part?



Correct.

Reichu wrote:You lost me here.



Rewording:

Gendo had a nice little scenario for how 3I would play out ("Dance, puppets, dance!"). Only trouble was, one of the puppets said "I am not your doll!". It sucks to be a conspiratorial mastermind when your minions get above themselves like that.

Originally posted on: 03.21.2006, 11:14 AM


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