WARNING! This is going to be a long series of posts dealing with what is, IMO, the most obfuscated, difficult topic in NGE. Not only that, but I'm dealing with a subject I know very little about. There are no doubt those on here that know way more about the Impacts and Lance than I do. So if there's anything I post that's obviously incorrect, feel free to correct me ASAP. These theories were formulated based on rather random ideas that had been floating around in my head, and this thread is an effort to put them into writing. I owe my sincerest thanks to anyone who takes the time to read all of my ramblings :)
The Basic Lance Theories
There's no delicate way to put this, but the Lance is quite obvious used in EoE as a phallic symbol. I DON'T think this is coincidental. Anno might've been trying to tell us something. Did it ever really occur to anyone what is needed for the Seeds to produce offspring? It's been mentioned that perhaps they're A-sexual - and maybe that's the easiest explanation. But I propose a different one:
Theory #1: Lance + SoL Core = New race
Frankly, there's NO evidence to back this claim up, but it sure does fit. A "Lance" goes into a "Core" of a "Seed of Life" and bingo-bango you have a new race on a planet. To me, it finally gives the Lance a greater purpose in the grand scheme of the NGE/SoL universe than just as a big mysterious stick.
Now, it also seems the Lance is crucial in both versions of the Impacts. It was present during the 2nd, was supposed to be there during Seele's original vision of the 3rd, and ended up being there in the actual 3rd (for this I'm going to use O3I and A3I to signify "Original 3rd Impact" that was PLANNED by Seele and "Actual 3rd Impact that actually happened). So, I asked myself: what role did the Lance seem to play?
So, Theory #2: The Lance acts as the key that turns the ignition that starts an Impact.
But, IMO, there's more to it than that.
Working from theory #1, the Lance is only supposed to combine with a Seed that has ONE type of "fruit". Now, the fruits are a mysterious thing, but I'm going to work on that a bit later. We'll just say that for now there's a very good reason two SoL's WERE NOT supposed to end up on the same planet, and that's leads me to:
Theory #3: The Lance -> FoL+FoK = Impact
Now, an impact as we know it as a humongo AATF that wipes out all life and the Seed with it (supposed to). I also think that the Lance + a fruit is what CREATES ATFs and therefor, creates life.
My Big Honkin' "Mechanics of the Impacts" Theories
Moderator: Board Staff
Forum rules
By visiting this forum, you agree to read the rules for discussion and abide by them.
By visiting this forum, you agree to read the rules for discussion and abide by them.
- Eva Yojimbo
- Redbeard
- Age: 38
- Posts: 8005
- Joined: Feb 17, 2007
- Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
- Gender: Male
My Big Honkin' "Mechanics of the Impacts" Theories
Last edited by Eva Yojimbo on Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
- Eva Yojimbo
- Redbeard
- Age: 38
- Posts: 8005
- Joined: Feb 17, 2007
- Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
- Gender: Male
2nd Impact and Seele
Seele finds out about Adam/Lilith, and the Lance. They want to ascend to godhood, essentially, Instrumentality. To do so, they need an AATF big enough to wipe out the planet. Ergo, they need an impact. To do so, they need the things in Theory #3. But, what to do? Adam's asleep in Antarctica. They need his S2 Engine (which is VERY LIKELY where the FoL is kept). They can't transport him. They can't do radical SoL surgery... What to do?
So, being the tricky men they are, they devise a plot to inject human DNA (VERY LIKELY our source of FoK), with the CE and Lancify Adam. This means when Adam wakes up, and Impact will already be occuring. I'm still VERY unclear as to how they had planned on containing it. We know the Lance is able to stop things from growing (See Lilith on the cross). So perhaps they thought they could contain it. Another theory is that perhaps they thought they could somehow control Adam post-CE - I'm not entirely sure. Much of the details of 2I remains a mystery. I still have no clue as to how they reduced Adam to an embryonic state (perhaps thanks to the Lance somehow). Either way, I don't think they anticipated on 2I wiping out all of Antarctica. But going by what 3I did, it probably could've been much worse.
Nonetheless, My basic theory is this:
Theory #4: Seele needed the S2 Engine (FoK) contained by Adam. If they couldn't get it FROM Adam, they had to reduce him to an embryo to study him, and perhaps get it from one of his offspring. They likely devised 2I so they could begin planning 3I and Instrumentality.
But I do think 2I teaches us an important lesson: It's that every Impact is the same: FoL+FoK+Lance = Impact. An Impact is nothing more than a giant AATF that wipes out everything in its path. So why was 3I different?
Seele finds out about Adam/Lilith, and the Lance. They want to ascend to godhood, essentially, Instrumentality. To do so, they need an AATF big enough to wipe out the planet. Ergo, they need an impact. To do so, they need the things in Theory #3. But, what to do? Adam's asleep in Antarctica. They need his S2 Engine (which is VERY LIKELY where the FoL is kept). They can't transport him. They can't do radical SoL surgery... What to do?
So, being the tricky men they are, they devise a plot to inject human DNA (VERY LIKELY our source of FoK), with the CE and Lancify Adam. This means when Adam wakes up, and Impact will already be occuring. I'm still VERY unclear as to how they had planned on containing it. We know the Lance is able to stop things from growing (See Lilith on the cross). So perhaps they thought they could contain it. Another theory is that perhaps they thought they could somehow control Adam post-CE - I'm not entirely sure. Much of the details of 2I remains a mystery. I still have no clue as to how they reduced Adam to an embryonic state (perhaps thanks to the Lance somehow). Either way, I don't think they anticipated on 2I wiping out all of Antarctica. But going by what 3I did, it probably could've been much worse.
Nonetheless, My basic theory is this:
Theory #4: Seele needed the S2 Engine (FoK) contained by Adam. If they couldn't get it FROM Adam, they had to reduce him to an embryo to study him, and perhaps get it from one of his offspring. They likely devised 2I so they could begin planning 3I and Instrumentality.
But I do think 2I teaches us an important lesson: It's that every Impact is the same: FoL+FoK+Lance = Impact. An Impact is nothing more than a giant AATF that wipes out everything in its path. So why was 3I different?
Last edited by Eva Yojimbo on Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
- Eva Yojimbo
- Redbeard
- Age: 38
- Posts: 8005
- Joined: Feb 17, 2007
- Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
- Gender: Male
Seele's O3I Plans
For Seele to initiate Instrumentality, they can't just cause a world-wide Impact. Wiping out souls with an AATF does no good. There has to be somewhere for those souls TO GO. For the souls to join together, there has to be yet another element in place
Enter: The ToL and the Egg of Lilith. Much of this is going on Fuyutsuki's talk in EoE. He asked if they planned to use Sho/the ToL as a "medium" of souls in EoE. This, to me, seems like the ToL is to, in a way, act as the medium between souls when the impact occurs that returns all souls to the Egg of Lilith.
So, what did Seele need for O3I? Lilith? Check. Terminal Dogma/Lilith's Egg? Check. The Lance? Check. S2 Engine/FoL? Uhhhh, oops. And THAT'S why 2I happened. Because they had everything but that one crucial part of the puzzle.
Now, their EXACT plans I'm not sure of. But I'm guessing it was something along the lines of 3I, only with Adam and Lilith rather than Sho and the MPE's. They would've merged the "fruits" together somehow, used the Lance to both initiate 3I and use it to reform the ToL. The Impact recreates Lilith's egg, and the AATF craze sweeps the world and the little red dots head towards Lilith's egg. However, it's also possible they needed the Evas from the beginning to act as the medium. They say in EoE "The Eva series, their existence was all for this moment." So it's possible something with Adam/Lilith and the Evas had been planned with the Eva acting as the medium just like in 3I.
Seele's A3I Plans
This is where things get confusing. IF the Lance is so crucial to an Impact, how is one even possible post-Lance? And why did they have to turn to Sho instead of Lilith?
Not easy questions, but I'll do my best.
Question 1: How is it even possible? It seems like what an impact is is basically an overloading of an S2 engine when it's combined with the FoK that's initiated by the Lance. This overload would never happen on an Angel/SoL/regular Eva if not initiated by the Lance. However, the MPE's are different. They're under the control of Seele. So, they can activate their S2s at any time. This part maybe pure speculation/conjecture, but I have to do it so my theory doesn't fall apart: The SToL ritual in EoE is likely a way for the MPE's and Sho to "link" to one another. This link is necessary so the MPE's can overload their S2s. Since Sho has both fruits but the MPE's only have the FoL (S2s), they need to "borrow" some of Sho's power to unleash their S2s.
Question 2: Why turn to Sho instead of Lilith? This, I don't know. It seems to me that anything that would've conceivably worked in O3I on Lilith would've worked in A3I on Lilith. It's possible that if they had originally planned on using Lilith and Adam/Angels with Sho as the medium and the Lance as the 'ignitor', they still needed Sho more.
For Seele to initiate Instrumentality, they can't just cause a world-wide Impact. Wiping out souls with an AATF does no good. There has to be somewhere for those souls TO GO. For the souls to join together, there has to be yet another element in place
Enter: The ToL and the Egg of Lilith. Much of this is going on Fuyutsuki's talk in EoE. He asked if they planned to use Sho/the ToL as a "medium" of souls in EoE. This, to me, seems like the ToL is to, in a way, act as the medium between souls when the impact occurs that returns all souls to the Egg of Lilith.
So, what did Seele need for O3I? Lilith? Check. Terminal Dogma/Lilith's Egg? Check. The Lance? Check. S2 Engine/FoL? Uhhhh, oops. And THAT'S why 2I happened. Because they had everything but that one crucial part of the puzzle.
Now, their EXACT plans I'm not sure of. But I'm guessing it was something along the lines of 3I, only with Adam and Lilith rather than Sho and the MPE's. They would've merged the "fruits" together somehow, used the Lance to both initiate 3I and use it to reform the ToL. The Impact recreates Lilith's egg, and the AATF craze sweeps the world and the little red dots head towards Lilith's egg. However, it's also possible they needed the Evas from the beginning to act as the medium. They say in EoE "The Eva series, their existence was all for this moment." So it's possible something with Adam/Lilith and the Evas had been planned with the Eva acting as the medium just like in 3I.
Seele's A3I Plans
This is where things get confusing. IF the Lance is so crucial to an Impact, how is one even possible post-Lance? And why did they have to turn to Sho instead of Lilith?
Not easy questions, but I'll do my best.
Question 1: How is it even possible? It seems like what an impact is is basically an overloading of an S2 engine when it's combined with the FoK that's initiated by the Lance. This overload would never happen on an Angel/SoL/regular Eva if not initiated by the Lance. However, the MPE's are different. They're under the control of Seele. So, they can activate their S2s at any time. This part maybe pure speculation/conjecture, but I have to do it so my theory doesn't fall apart: The SToL ritual in EoE is likely a way for the MPE's and Sho to "link" to one another. This link is necessary so the MPE's can overload their S2s. Since Sho has both fruits but the MPE's only have the FoL (S2s), they need to "borrow" some of Sho's power to unleash their S2s.
Question 2: Why turn to Sho instead of Lilith? This, I don't know. It seems to me that anything that would've conceivably worked in O3I on Lilith would've worked in A3I on Lilith. It's possible that if they had originally planned on using Lilith and Adam/Angels with Sho as the medium and the Lance as the 'ignitor', they still needed Sho more.
Last edited by Eva Yojimbo on Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
- Eva Yojimbo
- Redbeard
- Age: 38
- Posts: 8005
- Joined: Feb 17, 2007
- Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
- Gender: Male
WARNING 2: This is the longest part in the series and covers all the Impact parts of EoE... Mostly everything in 26' on. Think of it as as a kinda running commentary of sorts. Proceed at your own risk...
The Mechanics of A3I
Let's walk through this....
It's been discussed before about how wings coming out of anything in NGE = more power. I'm still unclear as to WHY/HOW the Lance comes back. But I'm more inclined to believe it's DRAWN back rather than it comes back of its own volition. I'm also unclear as to whether or not Seele knew the Lance would come back or not. They didn't seem to, and their A3I plans seemed to disclude the Lance. At this point, the MPEs are obviously preparing to set Sho up for 3I.
The Mechanics of A3I
Let's walk through this....
EoE wrote:EVA-01 bursts free of its restraining plates and its wings form into a cross
The Lance of Longinus pulls free of the moon and flies toward earth as if drawn by EVA-01
JSSDF Intelligence Officer:
Unidentified object approaching at high-speed from the outer atmosphere.
JSSDF Commander:
What!?
(NERV Command Center)
Fuyutsuki:
No!... Not the Lance of Longinus!?
(The Lance of Longinus stops just short of EVA-01's throat.)
-----------------------------------
SCENE: SEELE monoliths
SEELE 01:
At long last our hopes are to be realized.
SEELE 04:
The original Lance of Longinus has returned as well.
SEELE 09:
While somewhat fewer than planned, it will have to do.
ALL (chanting):
Return the Eva series to its rightful form.
Evangelize humankind and restore us to our true form.
With indiscriminate death and prayers, we return to our original state.
SEELE 01:
And let all souls find peace.
Now, let the sacrament begin!
(EVA-01 is crucified by the Eva series and lifted upwards)
It's been discussed before about how wings coming out of anything in NGE = more power. I'm still unclear as to WHY/HOW the Lance comes back. But I'm more inclined to believe it's DRAWN back rather than it comes back of its own volition. I'm also unclear as to whether or not Seele knew the Lance would come back or not. They didn't seem to, and their A3I plans seemed to disclude the Lance. At this point, the MPEs are obviously preparing to set Sho up for 3I.
Here's the "using Sho as a medium" part. And it's possible that the "marking of Sho" was, once again, so that the MPE's could link with with the FoK. The restoring the ToL is an interesting thing. Because there's the ACTUAL ToL, and there's the SToL ritual that the MPEs do. It's possible that they had this planned because they didn't think the Lance would be returned. But I still think there's more to it than that.EoE wrote:SCENE: NERV Command Center
Makoto:
EVA-01 has been captured!
Shigeru:
Altitude 12,000 meters! ...and rising!
Fuyutsuki:
SEELE bastards... Do they plan to use EVA-01 as the well of souls!? (Lit: "as a medium")
(Eva series release EVA-01... Shinji in entry plug with marks on palms)
-----------------------------------
SCENE: SEELE monoliths
SEELE 09?:
EVA-01 has been marked with the stigmata (sacred insignia).
All (chanting):
To restore the Tree of Life!
SEELE 01:
Our servants, the Eva series...
(Keel appears) Their existence has all been for this one moment.
(Eva series move to the positions of the Sephroticum and shine in circles around the cross of EVA-01)
Interesting that they say "this is the PRELUDE to 3I." Even though an AATF is occuring, this is only the "prelude?" To me, this seems to imply there's something more left to happen, and that something else is that despite the S2s going bonkers, the MPEs still needed their Lance's to create the full effect.EoE wrote:SCENE: NERV Command Center
Shigeru (off screen):
The Eva series have opened up their S2 systems!
Makoto (off screen):
Dimensional values inverting! They're going negative!
Measurement impossible... Numerical expression invalid!
Fuyutsuki:
An anti-AT Field...
(Eva series form into the Sephiroticum (Tree of Life))
Maya:
All the data are just like 15 years ago!
Then... this really is... The prelude to Third Impact!
-----------------------------------
SCENE: Outside NERV
1st soldier:
S2 system level critical!
Background:
Abort operations! All units pull back at once!
2nd soldier:
We... We can't maintain molecular attraction any longer!
JSSDF Commander:
Mission... failed...
(A massive explosion envelopes the Geofront)
-----------------------------------
SCENE: NERV Command Center shaking from the force of the explosion
Shigeru:
Direct impact! Surface layers melting!
Makoto:
Second wave excavating the headquarters periphery! It's exposing the outer hull!
Background:
Main JSSDF force annihilated!
Atmospheric ozone breaking up!
Fuyutsuki:
They're just physical shock waves!
Set the absorbers to maximum level - It should hold!
(The explosion expands outward from the Geofront, revealing the egg of Lilith: the Black Moon)
Another issue I'm not clear about is why the Impact seems to "restore the Red Earth to Lilith's egg". During the 2nd Impact they "found" the White moon, but as far as I know that's about it. It's also interesting here Fuyutsuki says "(Our returning to Lilith's Egg) depends on the will of Lilith" when Lilith is nowhere to be found yet. :/EoE wrote:SCENE: SEELE monoliths
SEELE 08/09:
With the Purification of the Red Earth...
That bespeaks time eternal...
SEELE 11:
First, return the Geofront...
Keel:
To its true form.
(Pull-back shot of the Earth and Lilith's Egg)
Fuyutsuki (off screen):
The egg of Lilith... the genesis of human life... the Black Moon...
We have no desire to return to that empty shell,
(on screen) But even that depends on the will of Lilith.
Last edited by Eva Yojimbo on Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
- Eva Yojimbo
- Redbeard
- Age: 38
- Posts: 8005
- Joined: Feb 17, 2007
- Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
- Gender: Male
This is where things start to go wrong for Seele. They never planned on Rei/Lilith interfering with 3I. Now that she contains both the FoK and FoL too, she's an all powerful SoL just Sho. But with Shinji in Sho's mental driver's seat, Lilith/Rei had to come along and lend him a hand.EoE wrote:SCENE: NERV Command Center
Shigeru:
Unidentified high-energy source approaching rapidly from Terminal Dogma!
Makoto:
AT Field verified! Analysis pattern blue!!
Maya:
It's not... an Angel!?
Makoto:
No! It's... a person!? It's human!
(Lilith-Rei rises through the Command Center... Lilith-Rei's hand passes through Maya, who shrieks in terror)
(Shinji inside the suspended EVA-01)
Shinji:
Damn... Damn... Damn... Damn!
(Lilith-Rei appears)
Shinji:
Ayanami...? Rei...!?
(Shinji screams as Lilith-Rei focuses on EVA-01 and cups it in her hands)
Shinji: AHHHHHHHHHHHHH! AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! AHHHH!!!
I think this is an interesting quote. They're actually depending on Shinji to "Complement humankind with your imperfect ego". How much was Seele relying on Shinji during 3I to ALLOW 3I to happen?EoE wrote:SCENE: SEELE monoliths
All (chanting):
Evangelion Unit 01's pilot...
Complement humankind with your imperfect ego.
Keel:
The moment of the Third Retribution has come.
(Eva series form into pattern)
This is a weird scene. I'm not sure exactly what to make of it. But I think it has something to do with the idea that the MPE's are kinda "absorbing" Rei's form as their S2s are going into overload. Think of it in the same way the formless Lilith took Rei's form when she merged with it. There's some kinda weird physiology that happens when Evas/SoLs etc. get around each other with an Impact occuring that they kinda take on the form of whatever is inside. In this case, the thing driving it is Rei.EoE wrote:SCENE: NERV Command Center
Shigeru:
The Eva series' AT Fields are resonating!
Makoto:
And amplifying further!
Fuyutsuki:
Has the assimilation with Rei begun?
(Eva series take Rei's laughing faces... Shinji/EVA-01 scream and EVA-01's core is exposed... Shinji clutches futilely at the controls)
Shinji: AHHHHHHHHHHHHH! AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! Asuka!!! AHHHHHH!!!
Shigeru:
Psychograph signal down!
Makoto:
Destrado materializing!
Fuyutsuki:
Surely the pilot's ego can't take much more...
Obviously, Kaworu's soul is also in Lilith as well. This is what Shinji's seeing at this point.EoE wrote:SCENE: Shinji, curled into a ball within Eva-01's entry plug
Shinji (whimpering):
No... No... No... No... No... No...!
Kaworu (off screen):
Do you want it to stop?
(Lilith-Kaworu appears)
Shinji:
Is that where you've been? Kaworu?
(Shinji resigns himself to Kaworu's outstretched hands... The Lance of Longinus approaches EVA-01's core)
Not sure what to make out of the pattern shift (any thoughts?). But Fuyutsuki's line means this to me:EoE wrote:SCENE: NERV Command Center
Shigeru:
Solenoid graph inverting! ego barrier weakening!
Makoto:
AT Field shifting to pattern red!
Fuyutsuki:
The Fruit of Life possessed by Angels,
And the Fruit of Wisdom possessed by humans...
(The Lance penetrates the core and merges with EVA-01 into the Tree of Life)
Fuyutsuki (off screen):
Having obtained them both, EVA-01 has become like a God.
And now it has been restored to the propagule of souls... the Tree of Life.
Will it become the Ark to save humankind from the nothingness of Third Impact?
Or the demon that destroys us all?
Our future lies in the hands of Ikari's son.
First line: Anything that contains both fruits becomes like a God and has WAY too much power. This is why two seeds were likely not supposed to end up on the same planet and why a Lance combined with a Seed with both fruits = an Impact.
2nd Line: ToL = Propagule of souls. The origin where all souls came from. This makes sense if you think about it. The place where the Seeds get the souls is the Lance which is linked to the ToL.
3rd-5th line: Pretty simple here, Shinji has the power to decide whether to initiate 3I and Instrumentality or end 3I. I've often wondered if he had to power to stop 3I (which was practically already occuring), but considering his choice in P3II, it's hard to imagine that he didn't.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
- Eva Yojimbo
- Redbeard
- Age: 38
- Posts: 8005
- Joined: Feb 17, 2007
- Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
- Gender: Male
And so, Rei/Lilith gives Shinji the power to choose. This was NOT according to Seele's plans. They wanted Shinji in as bad a state as possible (Destrudo) so the AATF would wipe everyone out with no interference.EoE wrote:Maya (clutching at Shigeru's sleeve):
Did... Did we do the right thing?
Shigeru:
How should I know!?
(Lilith-Kaworu transforms into Lilith-Rei with hands cupped around EVA-01)
Yui (voice):
This Rei is your heart... Your very hopes and dreams...
Rei (voice):
What do you wish for?
Shinji makes his choice, and Rei/Lilith abliges. The AATF sweeps over everyone, turning everyon into LCL. But notice, the souls don't finally all come together until the MPEs impale their cores with the lance. THIS is what compels the countless souls to spring up over the Earth and flow into the Black Moon and into Lilith.EoE wrote:SCENE: NERV Command Center
Makoto:
Pilot's response has infinitely approached zero!
Shigeru:
Eva series and Geofront passing through the E layer! -And still rising!
(Shot of Black Moon rising)
MAGI announcement:
Current altitude 220,000 km. Entering F layer.
Makoto:
All Eva units - still active!
Shigeru:
The Anti-AT Field from Lilith... it's expanding further! It's materializing!
(The earth's surface under the Black Moon turns white spreading outwards and Lilith-Rei emerges, cupping the Black Moon in her hands)
Makoto:
Anti-AT Field critical limit exceeded!
Shigeru:
No...! If this continues, individual life-forms will be unable to maintain their separate entities!
(Lilith-Rei spreads her wings)
Fuyutsuki:
The Chamber of Guf (Hall of Souls) has been unsealed...
Has the door to the world's beginning and end finally opened?
(Souls begin to gather around the Black Moon)
(Countless Reis begin to turn people into LCL)
<snip>
(Eva series impale their cores on the Lance replicas with gasps of ecstasy... Countless crosses spring up as a red wave speeds across the earth's surface... Souls flow from the Earth to the Black Moon and then into Lilith-Rei's hands... An eye appears in Lilith-Rei's forehead into which the EVA-01/Lance cross plunges itself and disappears...)
Now, keep in mind, while everyone losing their forms and their souls are gathing inside the Black Moon and then into Lilith, Shinji is STILL inside Sho, which Lilith tucks nicely away inside her headgina.
This is what confuses most people. "How can Shinji be inside Instrumentality but him and Rei alone? Lolwut?" Rei/Lilith is still in full control of what's going on. She tucked Shinji away seperately inside her for a reason, and that's so he could feel what it was like inside Instrumentality without actually BEING in Intrumentality. Rei/Lilith is also still giant and naked and controlling all living souls at the same time she's talking to Shinji. She's letting him make his final choice now that he has the knowledge of what Instrumentality is like.EoE wrote:SCENE: Blood/LCL gushes from Lilith-Rei's neck as she leans backwards
Shinji and Rei merged together in the sea of LCL
Shinji:
Ayanami... where are we?
Rei:
This is the sea of LCL... The primordial soup of life.
A world without AT Fields... without your own shape.
An ambiguous world where it is impossible to tell where you end and other people start.
A fragile world where you exist everywhere, and thus exist nowhere.
Shinji:
Have I died?
Rei:
No, everything has just been joined into one.
This is the world you have been hoping for... your world.
Shinji (releasing Misato's cross from his left hand):
But... this isn't right. I don't think this is right.
Rei:
If you wish once more for the existence of others, the barriers of the heart will separate everyone once more...
And the fear of other people will begin again.
Shinji:
That's all right...
(disengages Rei from him and clasps her hand)
Thank you.
(Shinji and Rei, Shinji's head lying in Rei's lap)
Shinji:
I feel that there were only hateful things there.
So I'm sure it was okay to run away.
But there was nothing good in the place I ran to, either.
After all, I didn't exist there... which is the same as no one existing.
Kaworu:
Is it okay for AT Fields to hurt you and others once more?
Shinji:
I don't mind. But, what are you two within my heart?
Rei:
Hope.
The hope that people might be able to understand one another.
Kaworu:
And the words 'I love you'.
Shinji:
But that's just pretending - a self-intoxicating belief... like a prayer.
It can't possibly last forever.
Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me.
Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real.
Lots going on here. What we have here is Yui as Sho breaking out of Lilith, The Black Moon exploding and all the souls in LCL form covering Lilith and returning to Earth. We also have Yui destroying the MPEs with the Lance for some reason.EoE wrote:SCENE: Shinji rejects Human Instrumentality, Lilith-Rei collapses backwards and her wings vanish...
EVA-01 breaks out from Lilith-Rei's eye and grows wings... The Black Moon divides into sections and explodes,
showering Lilith-Rei with LCL which falls to Earth and spreads outward...)
Kaworu:
Reality is in an unfamiliar place, and dreams are within reality.
Rei:
And the truth is within your heart.
(Lilith-Rei's body begins to fall apart)
Kaworu:
For it is the hearts of people that create their appearance.
Rei:
And new images will change peoples' hearts and appearances.
Images... the power of imagination... The power to create your own future, and to make time flow.
Kaworu:
But people must act of their own free will, or nothing will change at all.
Rei:
So you must find your lost self on your own...
Even if you lose your own words, or become lost in others' words.
(EVA-01 grasps and splits the Lance of Longinus... The Lances impaling the Eva series burst and disappear)
Rei:
Anyone can return to human form as long as they can imagine themselves in their own heart.
(The Eva series go silent and fall to Earth... Crosses rise into the heavens)
Yui (voice):
Don't worry.
All living things have the ability to return to their original form... and the heart to go on living.
Anywhere can be heaven as long as you have the will to live.
After all, you're alive... and you can find the chance to achieve happiness anywhere.
(Rei appears before the now silent EVA-01... EVA-01, the Lance, and millions of crosses continue to ascend into space)
Yui (voice):
As long as the Sun, the Moon and the Earth exist, everything will be all right.
To me, this is a short flashback to Shinji still in Sho. It's obvious at some point the Entry Plug was ejected, but this is a moment between him and Yui when he was still inside.EoE wrote:SCENE: Water drop- Yui caressing Shinji's cheek
Yui:
So, you'll be okay now?
Shinji:
I still don't know where to find happiness...
But I'll continue to think about whether it's good to be here... whether it was good to have been born.
But in the end, it's just realizing the obvious over and over again.
Because I am myself.
(Shinji emerges from the sea of LCL... Lilith-Rei's head splits)
I think this, more than anything is a hint that Yui is still alive in Sho. We have Shinji asking his mom what she'll do, and then this scene. The idea that she's floating with the Lance could mean that she's planning on populating some other planets. I'm not sure if this bit means anymore than this though... read into it what you will.EoE wrote:
Shinji:
But mother... what will you do?
(Flashback to 13 years ago - Fuyutsuki, Yui and infant-Shinji)
Fuyutsuki:
Humans create Evangelion in imitation of God... Is this our true goal?
Yui:
Yes. Humans can only live on this planet, but Evangelion can live forever... together with the human soul that dwells within it.
(EVA-01 and the Lance of Longinus float in space)
Even after 5 billion years, when the Earth, the Moon, and even the Sun have disappeared, it will still exist as long as even one person still lives.
It will be very lonely, but as long as that one person still lives...
Fuyutsuki:
It will be the eternal proof that humankind has existed...
Shinji:
Good-bye, mother.
This is far from conclusive, I realize, but I had to get some of these ideas out in writing before my head exploded. Perhaps some new ideas will come of it, or perhaps I've just wasted a few hours of my life. :)
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
- Ornette
- Administrator
- Age: 49
- Posts: 11887
- Joined: Dec 26, 2005
- Location: Pittsburgh/New York City
- Gender: Male
- Contact:
Eva Yojimbo wrote:Question 2: Why turn to Sho instead of Lilith? This, I don't know. It seems to me that anything that would've conceivably worked in O3I on Lilith would've worked in A3I on Lilith. It's possible that if they had originally planned on using Lilith and Adam/Angels with Sho as the medium and the Lance as the 'ignitor', they still needed Sho more.
I had always figured that it had to do something with this:
NGE2CI LOL Spear section wrote:D. In-Depth Information
For the purpose of opening the Path to Divinity, Gendo and Seele brought
Lilith's growth to a point just before the final stage, and to temporarily
delay this they are having Nerv transport the Spear of Longinus that was paired
with Adam.
It also says that the Spear can put an SoL into suspended animation. What I get out of Section D here is Seele and Gendo put Lilith into suspended animation until they were ready to start 3I, or whatever. Gendo removing the Spear caused Lilith to start growing again and that somehow put a damper on Seele's original plan.
This is not to say that the Spear didn't have another use in the workings of 3I, only to say why they couldn't use Lilith.
- Eva Yojimbo
- Redbeard
- Age: 38
- Posts: 8005
- Joined: Feb 17, 2007
- Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
- Gender: Male
I think it becomes an interesting question then of why they couldn't use a fully grown Lilith then...Ornette wrote:
It also says that the Spear can put an SoL into suspended animation. What I get out of Section D here is Seele and Gendo put Lilith into suspended animation until they were ready to start 3I, or whatever. Gendo removing the Spear caused Lilith to start growing again and that somehow put a damper on Seele's original plan.
This is not to say that the Spear didn't have another use in the workings of 3I, only to say why they couldn't use Lilith.
I mean, the Lance was used on Adam during 2I, and it didn't stop him from going kablooy. Perhaps the mistake they made during 2I is infusing Adam with DNA (the CE) while he was fully formed. They thought the Lance would stop vim, but the Lance can't stop something that's already fully formed. Rather, with Lilith they knew what they had to do. Put everything in place (The FoL/FoK) and THEN use the Lance so the same thing as 2I didn't happen. Rather this time, they would have control over the proceedings.
Once the Lance is taken out of Lilith, there's no way they can use her without creating an identical version of 2I. They don't want that. They need to control things so the AATF not only sweeps over everyone, but the souls are lead into ToL/Lilith's Egg.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
- Opteron-O3
- Tabris
- Posts: 994
- Joined: Feb 19, 2007
- Location: Texas
- Contact:
Very interesting! *Props*
I was actually thinking of asking a question concerning this, but you have answered a multitude of questions for me. Your theories seems to make sence, but I'll wait and see what the other Eva-Guru's have to say.
Ps. I actually read it all :)
I was actually thinking of asking a question concerning this, but you have answered a multitude of questions for me. Your theories seems to make sence, but I'll wait and see what the other Eva-Guru's have to say.
Ps. I actually read it all :)
Last edited by Opteron-O3 on Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Eva Yojimbo
- Redbeard
- Age: 38
- Posts: 8005
- Joined: Feb 17, 2007
- Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
- Gender: Male
Domo Arigato Opteron-san. :)Opteron-O3 wrote:
Ps. I actually read it all :)
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
- Anonymous_Evafan
- Minion
- Age: 39
- Posts: 3254
- Joined: Oct 25, 2006
- Location: On Reichu's shit list...
- Gender: Male
Eva Yojimbo wrote:I mean, the Lance was used on Adam during 2I, and it didn't stop him from going kablooy. Perhaps the mistake they made during 2I is infusing Adam with DNA (the CE) while he was fully formed.
They planned 2I to a certain extent, the only mistake they made was underestimating the size of whatever the hell they planned.
They thought the Lance would stop vim, but the Lance can't stop something that's already fully formed.
They found a fully formed Adam in suspended animation with the Spear stuck in her. What the Spear is suposed to do in 3I, who knows.
Anonymous_Evafan wrote:They found a fully formed Adam in suspended animation with the Spear stuck in her. What the Spear is suposed to do in 3I, who knows.
But 21' tells us that the LoL was found in Israel, not Antarctica, and the CI states that there is only one LoL on the planet...
EDIT: gah, typo.
Last edited by BobBQ on Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
BobBQ wrote:Anonymous_Evafan wrote:They found a fully formed Adam in suspended animation with the Spear stuck in her. What the Spear is suposed to do in 3I, who knows.
But 22' tells us that the LoL was found in Israel, not Antarctica, and the CI states that there is only one LoL on the planet...
...What? Israel? No.
The Reiquariam-overlays show a screenshot of Adam with the spear in its back. And #12 shows Gendo and Fuyutsuki on a frigate carrying the Spear from Antartica. There is no mention of Israel anywhere.
Also, I disagree with the idea that Spear + Core = New life. The 16th Angel had its core penetrated - no race emerged. EVA-01 had its core penetrated in 26' - no new race, just a Tree of Life. Adam had the Spear in it since it arrived on Earth - no race emerged in the 4 billion years of its stay on Earth. The Spear isn't required to create life, it is simply an omnipotent object with the responsibility of keeping Seeds of Life in check.
Last edited by Szmitten on Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
- BrikHaus
- Dokutah Tenma
- Posts: 6301
- Joined: Feb 11, 2006
- Location: Attending Physician - AKA: Hell
- Contact:
BobBQ wrote:Anonymous_Evafan wrote:They found a fully formed Adam in suspended animation with the Spear stuck in her. What the Spear is suposed to do in 3I, who knows.
But 22' tells us that the LoL was found in Israel, not Antarctica, and the CI states that there is only one LoL on the planet...
I first read that as: ...the Laugh out Loud was found in Isreal...
Later, I came to my senses.Awesomely Shitty
-"That purace has more badassu maddafaakas zan supermax spaceland."
-On EMF, as a thread becomes longer, the likelihood that fem-Kaworu will be mentioned increases exponentially.
-the only English language novel actually being developed in parallel to its Japanese version involving a pan-human Soviet in a galactic struggle to survive and to export the communist utopia/revolution to all the down trodden alien class and race- one of the premise being that Khrushchev remains and has abandoned Lysenko stupidity
-"That purace has more badassu maddafaakas zan supermax spaceland."
-On EMF, as a thread becomes longer, the likelihood that fem-Kaworu will be mentioned increases exponentially.
-the only English language novel actually being developed in parallel to its Japanese version involving a pan-human Soviet in a galactic struggle to survive and to export the communist utopia/revolution to all the down trodden alien class and race- one of the premise being that Khrushchev remains and has abandoned Lysenko stupidity
- Eva Yojimbo
- Redbeard
- Age: 38
- Posts: 8005
- Joined: Feb 17, 2007
- Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
- Gender: Male
Needs to be a SoL for that to work. There's a reason they're called Seeds of Life, afterall.Szmitten wrote:Also, I disagree with the idea that Spear + Core = New life. The 16th Angel had its core penetrated - no race emerged.
Once again, not a Seed of Life, but read my theory about what happens when FoL meets FoK and THEN the Lance.Szmitten wrote:
EVA-01 had its core penetrated in 26' - no new race, just a Tree of Life.
EDIT: Wanted to add to this that it's hard to tell exactly who's controlling what during 3I. Lilith obviously had a lot to do with the proceedings in how things went during 3I. And the idea that Yui *likely* became a SoL during EoE doesn't disprove my point.
Who knows what Adam was doing during those 4 billion years. But there's no reason to think that Lilith couldn't have used the Lance to create Lilim.Szmitten wrote:
Adam had the Spear in it since it arrived on Earth - no race emerged in the 4 billion years of its stay on Earth. The Spear isn't required to create life, it is simply an omnipotent object with the responsibility of keeping Seeds of Life in check.
Even Fuyutsuki calls the ToL the "Propagule of souls". The ToL is what is formed when the Lance enters Sho. Therefor, the Lance is connected with the ToL and is connected with that which creates souls.
To clear this up, the term propagule is often used in plant terminology. This describes it best:
Any of various usually vegetative portions of a plant, such as a bud or other offshoot, that aid in dispersal of the species and from which a new individual may develop.
If that's where all souls come from, then the ToL, and therefor the Lance which is connected to it, is absolutely crucial in creating new life.
Last edited by Eva Yojimbo on Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
- Eva Yojimbo
- Redbeard
- Age: 38
- Posts: 8005
- Joined: Feb 17, 2007
- Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
- Gender: Male
These are the vagueries I was trying to clear up with my post. "They planned 2I to a certain extent". Well no kidding! I would've never guessed! It's the details that are non-existent though.Anonymous_Evafan wrote:
They planned 2I to a certain extent, the only mistake they made was underestimating the size of whatever the hell they planned.
They found a fully formed Adam in suspened animation with the Lance stuck in her... So how do you explain this bit of dialogue:Anonymous_Evafan wrote:
They found a fully formed Adam in suspended animation with the Spear stuck in her. What the Spear is suposed to do in 3I, who knows.
ep.21' wrote:OLD MAN C:
What about the Lance of Longinus?
MAN A:
It's been sitting there since it was shipped here last week
from the Dead Sea.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
- ObsessiveMathsFreak
- Admin Emeritus
- Posts: 2855
- Joined: Mar 23, 2005
- Location: Working on the Commentary
It's great to see a new thread tackling the "Big Issues" of Evangelion. I think there's a lot of new ground we can cover here, and Eva Yojimbo has goten us off to a good start.
I apologise in advance for the following omnislashing, but there's just so much material and I felt I had to respond to it all.
I mentioned a while back, I believe during the Time of Revelations, that the Lance could be thought of as male. We have it's seeming reproductive role during Third Impact, and the image of a seemingly pregnant Lilith upon its withdrawal in episode #22'. There's also it's phallic shape as you mention, but is this a little too obvious? The Lance could be seen to act as a male counterpart to the female SoL's, with the exchange of "genetic"* material leading to the creation of a new and different SoL.
Certainly the right side of the equation seems a failry safe bet. We have Fuyutsuki's words about the "propagule of souls"/"life embryo", Yui's apparent ascension to "God"/"kami-sama" status, as well as the swathe of death and rebirth imagery throughout End of Evangelion. It seems reasonable to argue that a "new race", via the new SoL, Yui, has been created by the end of the film.
The Lance certainly seems to fit on the left hand side. However we could do well to add "Fruit of Life + Fruit of Knowladge" her as well. Also, "SoL Core" could be better replaced with "Appropriate Medium/Angel/Eva", as it is not clear if Lilith has a core or not. So we would have in total
Lance + Fruit of Life + Fruit of Knowladge + Appropriate Medium = New race
The Classified Information files seem to suggest that the Lance functions as a saftey device or control mechanism of some kind. The prevailing analogy has been the Lance as a kind of nuclear control rod, moderating the entire reaction. We also had the Lance seemingly by the Katsuragi expedition to control Adam or stop Adam. We also have that SEELE intended to intiate Third Impact without the Lance, again suggesting it does not function to start the process. The Lance seems more likely to be something that stops not starts Third Impact.
Instead of looking at the Lance's role in the starting or stopping Third Impact, perhaps it would be better to focus on its role in theory #1, namely in the creation of a new race/ SoL.
Creating ATFs could be said to be akin, or indeed isomorphic to, creating souls themselves, which leads us back to the idea of the reproductive aspect of the Lance. But it is clear that the SoLs,(Source of Life) have this ability themselves. Perhaps then the Lance supplies something the SoLs cannot themselves provide, and which is needed in the creation of new "SoL" life, not just the regular "life" that the SoLs generate. Perhaps the SoL's are asexual reproducers when generating their own "type" of life, but sexual reproducers when creating SoL life?
Precisely! This is by far the most intruiging, and insightful idea brought up. We can surmise that SEELE and Nerv did not initally have access to S^2 organs, as they were unable to install them in the first Evas. We also have Gendou and Fuyutsuki's intense interest in the core recovered from the fourth angel in episode #05, and following this we later hear of A^2 samples and attempts to install S^2 organs leading to disaster with Unit-04, suggesting that the technology is newer.
The notion that SEELE can only obtain an S^2 organ from the remains of a defeated Angel finally gives them a clear motive for allowing the incredibly destructive Second Impact to take place. They finally accomplish this task in episode #05, with the remains of Shamshel's core likely contaiing the S^2 samples(more here). With this idea, we can now see Second Impact as the first neccessary step in SEELEs masterplan for Third Impact and Complementation.
This idea fits smoothly into events, and even irons out a crease or two in our understanding. It almost seems obvious in retrospect, which I think is always a good sign that a theory works. The only remaining question is why SEELE could not obtain an S^2 organ from Adam(bearing in mind that Lilith probably does not have an S^2). However I think this is a minor issue compared to the question of "Why did SEELE allow 2I to happen at all?".
Actually, I think a better explanation may be that the MPs are providing energy for the process of Third Impact. If indeed Lilith lack an S^2 organ, (the source of Life), it may not be able on its own to generate enough of an AATF to complement humanity. Perhaps the purpose of the Eva series that Keel mentions is to provide the raw energy necessary to power such an event, again pointing back to SEELE's reasons for allowing Second Impact.
Remember that while all the Evas are offshoots or cuttings of Adam, only Unit-01 is the "true" offspring of Lilith, having been literally born from Lilith's body. Going by the idea of the ammended thery #1 equation
Lance + Fruit of Life + Fruit of Knowladge + Appropriate Medium = New race
Let us ammend this slightly again to obtain
Lance + Fruit of Life + Fruit of Knowladge + Appropriate Medium + "supplied MP energy" =
{ New Race if Shinji chooses life
Complementation if Shinji chooses "death"
}
Perhaps it is the case that SEELE's appropriate medium for complementation is an Angel or Eva which is also an LDO(Lilith derived organism). I.e, a medium that is compatable with all the human souls being grafted onto it to produce the complemented being.
Some thoughts on the EoE runthrough.
Indeed, SEELE explicitly tell us that Shinji is the one in control of Third Impact. While this idea has yet to be discussed in depth, viewing Third impact as an allegory for Shinji's suicide attempt puts him squarely in the driving seat. But, that is a notion still to be debated.
As to SEELE's relyance on the depressive and distraught Shinji choosing complementation, i.e. suicide, it is interesting to note that the event that drove him over the edge, killing Kaworu, was orchestrated by them. And with in full knowladge that Nerv's only remaining Eva and pilot combination was Shinji, and that Shinji's morals had prevented him from killing a human before (episode #18 ). Keel's words a certainly intruiging in this regard.
Food for thought.
I believe the correctterm would be "resonating" with Rei.
But, it's not yet final that an impact has begun at this point. Though perhaps it is this accident of fate which allows one to take place.
So again the reproductive aspect of the lance in relation to "SoL" propagation. But is Fuyutsuki speaking of the Lance's role here?
Actually, I think Shinji both chooses to initiate Third Impact, and cease it, and also it is his place as the pilot of Unit-01 that grants him this privilage, not Rei. But I digress.
Hence Kaworu perhaps?
It may in fact be the entry plug, not Rei, that is keeping Shinji protected within the "interstice" between complementation and reality, and individual enough to make rational decisions.
This is indeed the accepted interpretation. and further evidence that we need a .... you know what.
Debates on Evangelion's Dead Sea and it's relation to the real world location have taken place before, but unfortunately I have so far failed to make the case for the Eva Dead Sea being in the Antarctic geofront. I find the real world interpretation slightly distasteful, paticularly in relation to the DS scrolls, but so far no one has taken the bait so to speak.
This is already turning into a lively debate. Hopefully we'll come up with some more good ideas as it progresses. Once again apologies for the fragmented reply.
*What I mean by "genetic" here is something akin to our normal understanding of the term, but I'll need a later thread to clarify my thoughts on this.
I apologise in advance for the following omnislashing, but there's just so much material and I felt I had to respond to it all.
Eva Yojimbo wrote:There's no delicate way to put this, but the Lance is quite obvious used in EoE as a phallic symbol. I DON'T think this is coincidental. Anno might've been trying to tell us something. Did it ever really occur to anyone what is needed for the Seeds to produce offspring?
I mentioned a while back, I believe during the Time of Revelations, that the Lance could be thought of as male. We have it's seeming reproductive role during Third Impact, and the image of a seemingly pregnant Lilith upon its withdrawal in episode #22'. There's also it's phallic shape as you mention, but is this a little too obvious? The Lance could be seen to act as a male counterpart to the female SoL's, with the exchange of "genetic"* material leading to the creation of a new and different SoL.
Eva Yojimbo wrote:Theory #1: Lance + SoL Core = New race
Frankly, there's NO evidence to back this claim up, but it sure does fit. A "Lance" goes into a "Core" of a "Seed of Life" and bingo-bango you have a new race on a planet. To me, it finally gives the Lance a greater purpose in the grand scheme of the NGE/SoL universe than just as a big mysterious stick.
Certainly the right side of the equation seems a failry safe bet. We have Fuyutsuki's words about the "propagule of souls"/"life embryo", Yui's apparent ascension to "God"/"kami-sama" status, as well as the swathe of death and rebirth imagery throughout End of Evangelion. It seems reasonable to argue that a "new race", via the new SoL, Yui, has been created by the end of the film.
The Lance certainly seems to fit on the left hand side. However we could do well to add "Fruit of Life + Fruit of Knowladge" her as well. Also, "SoL Core" could be better replaced with "Appropriate Medium/Angel/Eva", as it is not clear if Lilith has a core or not. So we would have in total
Lance + Fruit of Life + Fruit of Knowladge + Appropriate Medium = New race
Eva Yojimbo wrote:So, Theory #2: The Lance acts as the key that turns the ignition that starts an Impact.
.....
Theory #3: The Lance -> FoL+FoK = Impact
The Classified Information files seem to suggest that the Lance functions as a saftey device or control mechanism of some kind. The prevailing analogy has been the Lance as a kind of nuclear control rod, moderating the entire reaction. We also had the Lance seemingly by the Katsuragi expedition to control Adam or stop Adam. We also have that SEELE intended to intiate Third Impact without the Lance, again suggesting it does not function to start the process. The Lance seems more likely to be something that stops not starts Third Impact.
Instead of looking at the Lance's role in the starting or stopping Third Impact, perhaps it would be better to focus on its role in theory #1, namely in the creation of a new race/ SoL.
Eva Yojimbo wrote:Now, an impact as we know it as a humongo AATF that wipes out all life and the Seed with it (supposed to). I also think that the Lance + a fruit is what CREATES ATFs and therefor, creates life.
Creating ATFs could be said to be akin, or indeed isomorphic to, creating souls themselves, which leads us back to the idea of the reproductive aspect of the Lance. But it is clear that the SoLs,(Source of Life) have this ability themselves. Perhaps then the Lance supplies something the SoLs cannot themselves provide, and which is needed in the creation of new "SoL" life, not just the regular "life" that the SoLs generate. Perhaps the SoL's are asexual reproducers when generating their own "type" of life, but sexual reproducers when creating SoL life?
Eva Yojimbo wrote:Theory #4: Seele needed the S2 Engine (FoK) contained by Adam. If they couldn't get it FROM Adam, they had to reduce him to an embryo to study him, and perhaps get it from one of his offspring. They likely devised 2I so they could begin planning 3I and Instrumentality.
.....
So, what did Seele need for O3I? Lilith? Check. Terminal Dogma/Lilith's Egg? Check. The Lance? Check. S2 Engine/FoL? Uhhhh, oops. And THAT'S why 2I happened. Because they had everything but that one crucial part of the puzzle.
Precisely! This is by far the most intruiging, and insightful idea brought up. We can surmise that SEELE and Nerv did not initally have access to S^2 organs, as they were unable to install them in the first Evas. We also have Gendou and Fuyutsuki's intense interest in the core recovered from the fourth angel in episode #05, and following this we later hear of A^2 samples and attempts to install S^2 organs leading to disaster with Unit-04, suggesting that the technology is newer.
The notion that SEELE can only obtain an S^2 organ from the remains of a defeated Angel finally gives them a clear motive for allowing the incredibly destructive Second Impact to take place. They finally accomplish this task in episode #05, with the remains of Shamshel's core likely contaiing the S^2 samples(more here). With this idea, we can now see Second Impact as the first neccessary step in SEELEs masterplan for Third Impact and Complementation.
This idea fits smoothly into events, and even irons out a crease or two in our understanding. It almost seems obvious in retrospect, which I think is always a good sign that a theory works. The only remaining question is why SEELE could not obtain an S^2 organ from Adam(bearing in mind that Lilith probably does not have an S^2). However I think this is a minor issue compared to the question of "Why did SEELE allow 2I to happen at all?".
Eva Yojimbo wrote:Question 1: How is it even possible? It seems like what an impact is is basically an overloading of an S2 engine when it's combined with the FoK that's initiated by the Lance ...This link is necessary so the MPE's can overload their S2s. Since Sho has both fruits but the MPE's only have the FoL (S2s), they need to "borrow" some of Sho's power to unleash their S2s.
Actually, I think a better explanation may be that the MPs are providing energy for the process of Third Impact. If indeed Lilith lack an S^2 organ, (the source of Life), it may not be able on its own to generate enough of an AATF to complement humanity. Perhaps the purpose of the Eva series that Keel mentions is to provide the raw energy necessary to power such an event, again pointing back to SEELE's reasons for allowing Second Impact.
Eva Yojimbo wrote:Question 2: Why turn to Sho instead of Lilith? This, I don't know. It seems to me that anything that would've conceivably worked in O3I on Lilith would've worked in A3I on Lilith. It's possible that if they had originally planned on using Lilith and Adam/Angels with Sho as the medium and the Lance as the 'ignitor', they still needed Sho more.
Remember that while all the Evas are offshoots or cuttings of Adam, only Unit-01 is the "true" offspring of Lilith, having been literally born from Lilith's body. Going by the idea of the ammended thery #1 equation
Lance + Fruit of Life + Fruit of Knowladge + Appropriate Medium = New race
Let us ammend this slightly again to obtain
Lance + Fruit of Life + Fruit of Knowladge + Appropriate Medium + "supplied MP energy" =
{ New Race if Shinji chooses life
Complementation if Shinji chooses "death"
}
Perhaps it is the case that SEELE's appropriate medium for complementation is an Angel or Eva which is also an LDO(Lilith derived organism). I.e, a medium that is compatable with all the human souls being grafted onto it to produce the complemented being.
Some thoughts on the EoE runthrough.
Eva Yojimbo wrote:This is where things start to go wrong for Seele. They never planned on Rei/Lilith interfering with 3I. Now that she contains both the FoK and FoL too, she's an all powerful SoL just Sho. But with Shinji in Sho's mental driver's seat, Lilith/Rei had to come along and lend him a hand.
....
I think this is an interesting quote. They're actually depending on Shinji to "Complement humankind with your imperfect ego". How much was Seele relying on Shinji during 3I to ALLOW 3I to happen?
Indeed, SEELE explicitly tell us that Shinji is the one in control of Third Impact. While this idea has yet to be discussed in depth, viewing Third impact as an allegory for Shinji's suicide attempt puts him squarely in the driving seat. But, that is a notion still to be debated.
As to SEELE's relyance on the depressive and distraught Shinji choosing complementation, i.e. suicide, it is interesting to note that the event that drove him over the edge, killing Kaworu, was orchestrated by them. And with in full knowladge that Nerv's only remaining Eva and pilot combination was Shinji, and that Shinji's morals had prevented him from killing a human before (episode #18 ). Keel's words a certainly intruiging in this regard.
Episode #24 && Episode #24' wrote:KEEL:
I will be praying that Unit 01 will accomplish its task.
Food for thought.
Eva Yojimbo wrote:This is a weird scene. I'm not sure exactly what to make of it. But I think it has something to do with the idea that the MPE's are kinda "absorbing" Rei's form as their S2s are going into overload.
I believe the correctterm would be "resonating" with Rei.
Eva Yojimbo wrote:First line: Anything that contains both fruits becomes like a God and has WAY too much power. This is why two seeds were likely not supposed to end up on the same planet and why a Lance combined with a Seed with both fruits = an Impact.
But, it's not yet final that an impact has begun at this point. Though perhaps it is this accident of fate which allows one to take place.
Eva Yojimbo wrote:2nd Line: ToL = Propagule of souls. The origin where all souls came from. This makes sense if you think about it. The place where the Seeds get the souls is the Lance which is linked to the ToL.
So again the reproductive aspect of the lance in relation to "SoL" propagation. But is Fuyutsuki speaking of the Lance's role here?
Eva Yojimbo wrote:3rd-5th line: Pretty simple here, Shinji has the power to decide whether to initiate 3I and Instrumentality or end 3I. I've often wondered if he had to power to stop 3I (which was practically already occuring), but considering his choice in P3II, it's hard to imagine that he didn't.
Eva Yojimbo wrote:And so, Rei/Lilith gives Shinji the power to choose. This was NOT according to Seele's plans.
Actually, I think Shinji both chooses to initiate Third Impact, and cease it, and also it is his place as the pilot of Unit-01 that grants him this privilage, not Rei. But I digress.
Eva Yojimbo wrote:They wanted Shinji in as bad a state as possible (Destrudo) so the AATF would wipe everyone out with no interference.
Hence Kaworu perhaps?
Eva Yojimbo wrote:This is what confuses most people. "How can Shinji be inside Instrumentality but him and Rei alone? Lolwut?" Rei/Lilith is still in full control of what's going on. She tucked Shinji away seperately inside her for a reason, and that's so he could feel what it was like inside Instrumentality without actually BEING in Intrumentality.
It may in fact be the entry plug, not Rei, that is keeping Shinji protected within the "interstice" between complementation and reality, and individual enough to make rational decisions.
Eva Yojimbo wrote:I think this, more than anything is a hint that Yui is still alive in Sho. We have Shinji asking his mom what she'll do, and then this scene. The idea that she's floating with the Lance could mean that she's planning on populating some other planets.
This is indeed the accepted interpretation. and further evidence that we need a .... you know what.
Szmitten wrote:BobBQ wrote:Anonymous_Evafan wrote:They found a fully formed Adam in suspended animation with the Spear stuck in her. What the Spear is suposed to do in 3I, who knows.
But 22' tells us that the LoL was found in Israel, not Antarctica, and the CI states that there is only one LoL on the planet...
...What? Israel? No.
The Reiquariam-overlays show a screenshot of Adam with the spear in its back. And #12 shows Gendo and Fuyutsuki on a frigate carrying the Spear from Antartica. There is no mention of Israel anywhere.
Debates on Evangelion's Dead Sea and it's relation to the real world location have taken place before, but unfortunately I have so far failed to make the case for the Eva Dead Sea being in the Antarctic geofront. I find the real world interpretation slightly distasteful, paticularly in relation to the DS scrolls, but so far no one has taken the bait so to speak.
This is already turning into a lively debate. Hopefully we'll come up with some more good ideas as it progresses. Once again apologies for the fragmented reply.
*What I mean by "genetic" here is something akin to our normal understanding of the term, but I'll need a later thread to clarify my thoughts on this.
[Became an administrator on or before October 4th, 2007.]
May The Maths Be With You.
May The Maths Be With You.
- Eva Yojimbo
- Redbeard
- Age: 38
- Posts: 8005
- Joined: Feb 17, 2007
- Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
- Gender: Male
Superb reply OMF! You've given me a lot of new ideas to work with. I'm going to roll them around in the ol noggin for tonight and try to formulate a coherent reply tomorrow. I'm still feeling the after effects (glow?) of finally being able to get those first 6 posts worth of thoughts outta my head. :)
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:Debates on Evangelion's Dead Sea and it's relation to the real world location have taken place before, but unfortunately I have so far failed to make the case for the Eva Dead Sea being in the Antarctic geofront. I find the real world interpretation slightly distasteful, paticularly in relation to the DS scrolls, but so far no one has taken the bait so to speak.
So you're saying that the only commonality between the Dead Sea and the secret Dead Sea scrolls in NGE and the Dead Sea and scrolls that exist in our reality is the name? I don't see the logic.
On the same topic, how do we know that thing sticking out of Adam's back actually is the Lance?
- ObsessiveMathsFreak
- Admin Emeritus
- Posts: 2855
- Joined: Mar 23, 2005
- Location: Working on the Commentary
BobBQ wrote:So you're saying that the only commonality between the Dead Sea and the secret Dead Sea scrolls in NGE and the Dead Sea and scrolls that exist in our reality is the name? I don't see the logic.
Well every other religious reference turned out to be something independant of the original, so in this sense the Dead Sea being the "real" one would be the exception rather than the rule.
The pictures are blurred enough that they could convievably be two perfectly positioned stalicmites, but that seems unlikely.BobBQ wrote:On the same topic, how do we know that thing sticking out of Adam's back actually is the Lance?
[Became an administrator on or before October 4th, 2007.]
May The Maths Be With You.
May The Maths Be With You.
Return to “Evangelion TV Series + EoE Discussion”
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 30 guests