Seele/Gendo's Masterplans: From the Beginning to the End

[Eva Yojimbo]

Of all the things in NGE that are vague and confusing, I don't think any are more consistently vague and confusing as Seele's and Gendo's masterplans for 3I and Instrumentality. Just how much of NGE went according to Seele's "script"? What was Seele's original script (going all the way back to before 2I)?

So consider this a thread for presenting ideas and theories reguarding Seele and Gendo's plans for 3I, going back to the beginning and all the way to the end...

[Szmitten]

So essentially we should list every moment SEELE or Gendo has said "All is going according to plan" or "THATS NOT IN OUR SCENARIOH SHI-!"

[Eva Yojimbo]

I'm thinking more of an overview, not an episode by episode synopsis. I'm talking about what they really had planned from the beginning and how it progressed.

It seems their involvment with 2I is even vague and kinda mysterious. Just how much did they know and how much of the "disaster" was caused by their own doing?

[BrikHaus]

I don't think anything in Eva was planned. They just made it up on a week by week basis.

[Anonymous_Evafan]

It seems their involvment with 2I is even vague and kinda mysterious. Just how much did they know and how much of the "disaster" was caused by their own doing?

Not really, they planned it to a certain extent. I'd assume the scope of the event was well beyond what they expected though.

Misato:
The Second Impact, 15 years ago, was something that humans devised. But that was in order to minimize the damage, by retroverting Adam all the way to an egg before the other Angels would awaken.

[Eva Yojimbo]

I know they were involved, but how? And what their actual plans for it and why did they want it to happen?

I mean, did the conversations in Seele go something like:

Keel: So, we've found Adam.
04: Yes, we should do weird experiments on him and make him go nuts and kill half the world..
08: That will teach those foolish Lilim.
03: We will then use the embryonic Adam to build Mini-Adams from, and 15 years in the future they'll fend off Adam's kids, and then we'll use one to start 3I.
Keel: Yes, that will be our promised day.

:?

I just think the extent of their involvment and their actual masterplan behind everything is extremely vague...

[Anonymous_Evafan]

I know they were involved, but how? And what their actual plans for it and why did they want it to happen?

Apparently the FAR were dicks and decided if 2 SoL's ended up on the same planet they'd duke it out to decide who is more worthy and stuff.

15. Angel

D. In-Depth Information

Two Seeds of Life cannot exist on one planet, and, therefore, one of them is excluded. As recorded in the Secret Dead Sea Scrolls, Adam-based life took part in a contest of survival, putting the stakes on their own existence. Some of them were trying to access Lilith and reset all life, some of them had nothing in mind, and some were trying to recover their progenitor Adam. The Angels -- Adam-based life -- became active under their respective tactics for survival and success.

This is bad if you want to say live. So, get rid of Adam so no souls can be handed out seems like the most plausible chain of events. If the other Angels die in the process, even better. Unfortunately things didn't go according to plan.

[Eva Yojimbo]

So where do Seele go from "Hey, let's get rid of Adam and his kids because, you know, we want to survive and stuff", to "Hey, let's tang the entire planet because, well, just for the hell of it!"...

[Rawinder]

Second Impact was indirectly SEELE's fault. They feared what Adam would do if he were to awaken (i.e. reset all life on Earth and make the planet more hospitable to Angels), so they planned to revert him to an embryo - this way they could study him without having to worry about the reprecussions of a fully sentient Adam.

Reverting Adam into an embryo resulted in 2I, which was considered minimal damage when compared to what could have happened. I have a hard time believing they planned an explosion that would shake the planet to it's core, but obviously they expected something bad to happen (at least to Anarctica), which is why Keel and Gendo left the research team the day before.

[Anonymous_Evafan]

Uh, the Path to Godhood BS was in the works before Adam-go-boom. If Adam had won the contest then their ambitions would have null and void.

12. Seele

C. Confidential Information

An esoteric secret society born during the medieval Dark Ages and, originally, a religious order. Slowly but surely, they extended their influence, until at last they crushed the final forces of opposition in the mid-20th century and became a latent power with covert rule over human society.

D. In-Depth Information

Upon acquiring the Secret Dead Sea Scrolls, Seele turned once again to a creed that, up until then, they had considered naught but the pipe dreams of their ancestors. By putting the miracle of divinity, in the form of prophecy, within their sights, they restored the faith. Their dogma is the Path to Adam Kadmon -- that is, the approaching of a divinity both ageless and undying.

[Rawinder]

Thanks for reiterating something I already know. I must've missed the part where I contradicted your point.

[Anonymous_Evafan]

It wasn't a reply to you. You made your post while I was typing my reply to Eva Yojimbo, specifically this:

So where do Seele go from "Hey, let's get rid of Adam and his kids because, you know, we want to survive and stuff", to "Hey, let's tang the entire planet because, well, just for the hell of it!"...

[Rawinder]

Then I apologize for being an ass.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

I don't think anything in Eva was planned. They just made it up on a week by week basis.

Though there's no doubt that the Human Instrumentality Project is the series MacGuffin, there is an overall logic to the proceedings. It may not be rock solid logic, but it does have a "lucid dream" consistency to it.

I wish I had more references for the following but Reichu is the resident forum librarian, and she's currently indisposed. Perhaps other venerable members can dig up some references for all this stuff.

We do know certain things for a fact in the series. The first and most obvious is that SEELE did intend to bring about Third Impact and Complementation. Various reasons have been proposed for their insistence on this, but the most compelling to my mind is the idea that Second Impact somehow permanently damaged Earth's "spritual" ecosystem. Adam was somehow attempting to convert the entire planet into an ADO ecosystem, which is physically and perhaps spirtitually toxic to LDO based life, and was only stopped by the application of a huge Anti-AT Field. With Earth crippled in this way, humanity is somehow doomed "less and less children born each year", and so Third Impact becomes an inevitability if mankind is to escape pining away.

So with Third Impact likely "inevitable", SEELE propose Complementation as the solution(Convieniently, they may have also arranged for Second Impact to occur in the first place). Chairman KEEL places his trust in Ikari Gendou to complete the project, but all is not well.

As revealed by the park scene in episode #21', both Fuyutsuki and Yui oppose SEELE's plan.

FUYUTSUKI: Today is just like every other day.
The disappearance of autumn from this country is truly sad.
The Secret Dead Sea Scrolls that Seele possesses...
If things happen as it is written in those scrolls,
the Third Impact will happen in another decade or so without fail.

YUI: The organizations are meant to prevent the final tragedy.
That is what Seele and Gehirn are.

FUYUTSUKI: I support your ideas, not Seele's.

It's almost certain Gendou stands with Yui in this, as evidenced by his conflicts with SEELE. But, it appears that even this trio still intends to bring about Third Impact, but not Complementation.

Apparently, Fuyutsuki, Yui and Gendou want to initiate Third Impact but use Unit-01 as an "Ark", to spare the souls of humanity from Complementation. We hear evidence of this in episodes:

SEELE: "There is a man trying to close the Box before the Hope at the bottom appears."

SEELE: We have no intention of giving up our human forms simply to enter the Ark called Eva.

Fuyutsuki:
Having obtained them both, EVA-01 has become like a God.
And now it has been restored to the propagule of souls... the Tree of Life.
Will it become the Ark to save humankind from the nothingness of Third Impact?
Or the demon that destroys us all?

So Yui's plan differed from SEELE's in that, though the inevitable Third Impact would be initiated, Humanity would be spared the "nothingness" of Complementation. This appears to be outcome of Shinji's decision in End Of Evangelion. By unleashing his destrudo, he initiates Third Impact, to the delight of Keel et al. But their plans are foiled when Shinji pulls back at the brink and chooses life over Complementation, thus "somehow" fulfilling Unit-01's purpose as an "Ark" for humanity.

Now, as it turns out, SEELE intially intended to use Lilith and the Lance to initiate Third Impact and Complementation. But when the Lance was lost to them in episode #22('), they had to turn to plan B.

Keel:
The promised time has come.
With the Lance of Longinus now lost, complementation using Lilith is impossible.
Our only hope is to proceed with EVA-01, Lilith's sole clone.

So part of Yui's plan seems to have been to force the usage of Unit-01, with her inside, in place of Lilith for Third Impact.

Plan B somehow, either as a simple backup to Plan A, or originally as a part of it, also involved the Mass Production Eva's somehow, and probably their "lesser" Lances. In any case, once the Lance is returned, we hear that the Evas primary purpose was not simply to defeat the Angels.

SEELE 01: Our servants, the Eva series...
(Keel appears) Their existence has all been for this one moment.

All this is heavily confused by two things. Firstly, it seems likely that in the meantime since Yui's imbuement in Unit-01, Gendou has had a change of heart and now wishes to see Yui again, probably joining her in Unit-01. He seems to need to use Adam's embryo, complete with now empty core, and Rei to accomplish this.

But how is unclear to say the least. It's not even clear if this was a part of Yui, Fuyutsuki and Gendou's original plan. It's not even clear if Rei was either. In fact, Yui appeared to want to end up floating forever alone in the Eva, so Gendou's wish to be with here is a suspect part of their plan.

Yui: Yes. Humans can only live on this planet, but Evangelion can live forever... together with the human soul that dwells within it.
(EVA-01 and the Lance of Longinus float in space)
Even after 5 billion years, when the Earth, the Moon, and even the Sun have disappeared, it will still exist as long as even one person still lives. It will be very lonely, but as long as that one person still lives...

Fuyutsuki: It will be the eternal proof that humankind has existed...

Shinji: Good-bye, mother.

The second complicating factor is the return of the Lance from space, to the delight of SEELE. Gendou seemed eager to remove it form the equation in episode #22', so seemingly it was a part of the original plan. But when it is summoned back, or perhaps reŧurns of its own volition, things still appear to proceed in Yui's favour. Even Fuyutsuki is surprised by its return, and he seemed most privy to Yui's wishes, perhaps more so than Gendou. So exactly what Yui's originally proposed scenario was is a matter of some debate.

There's more besides all this. Add to this complicating factors such as esoteric Kabbalistic referenes, seemingly contridictory lines, the whole Kaworu thing, three Rei's, the events of Second impact, Ritsuko's ravings in episode #23', and an apparent side plot involving interstellar procreation and proliferation, and it's pretty easy to see why we're still here after 11 years trying to figure things out.

So that's a quick overview of out level of understanding as it stands today. Minus the considerable piece I've left out of course. I'm still optimistic of some kind of a resolution to all this. Perhaps not an entirely complete one, but I think a "lucid dream" interpretation is still on the cards. Hopefully someone can point to the relevant threads where the majority of the above was first discussed. It would be an interesting journey for any Eva initiate to se the evolution of all these ideas from the absolute and complete cluelessness we once felt to the the more enlighted cluelessness we're faced with at the present.

[Eva Yojimbo]

My sincerest thanks to ObsessiveMathsFreak and that most informative post. That's what I had in mind when I started this thread.

What I was mainly interested in was the idea that Seele obviously had 3I and Instrumentality planned from before 2I. So they needed 2I to keep Adam from coming to life and turning the Earth into AdamAngelLand - Ok, that makes sense. But how did 2I fit into their plans for 3I and Instrumentality? Assuming they had 3I/Instrumentality planned from before this, did they have the Eva/Lance/Adam/Lilith/etc. Scenario all planned out prior to 2I? Or is that just something that came along after?

The other thing I've never understood is why Seele waited. Did all of the angels have to be gone? Because they had the Lance along with Lilith's body and soul for a while. Did they still need Adam in some form (with the S2 engines, most likely)? And does anyone know how the Lance fits in with all of this? I know what it is, but what is its role in causing 2I/3I? It seems to be very important in that regard...

[Reichu]

...SEELE did intend to bring about Third Impact and Complementation. Various reasons have been proposed for their insistence on this, but the most compelling to my mind is the idea that Second Impact somehow permanently damaged Earth's "spritual" ecosystem. ... With Earth crippled in this way, humanity is somehow doomed "less and less children born each year", and so Third Impact becomes an inevitability if mankind is to escape pining away.

This sounds vaguely like a repackaging of the "decreasing birthrate caused by metabiological competition with Angels" idea.

Adam was somehow attempting to convert the entire planet into an ADO ecosystem, which is physically and perhaps spirtitually toxic to LDO based life

I wonder if the souls from down under are still hanging around -- there's a reddish coloring to the waters -- but they just can't do shit due to the lovely environs. (This has the decided advantage of letting Dr. K participate in Instrumentality and come back after 3I.)

and was only stopped by the application of a huge Anti-AT Field.

No. The AATF was Adam's. The other AATF was a translation that doesn't work as well.

What stopped Adam was primarily the fact that she blew up in a big way, and somehow managed to retrovert into an egg/embryo/whatever at the same time. (How? Quantum Magic!)

So with Third Impact likely "inevitable", SEELE propose Complementation as the solution

The old geezers were apparently interested in divine ascension all along -- it was an old dream of their 'ancestors' that got put on hold until the 'means' started showing up. See the CI.

Apparently, Fuyutsuki, Yui and Gendou want to initiate Third Impact but use Unit-01 as an "Ark", to spare the souls of humanity from Complementation. <snip> But their plans are foiled when Shinji pulls back at the brink and chooses life over Complementation, thus "somehow" fulfilling Unit-01's purpose as an "Ark" for humanity.

Did the "Ark" crap literally come to pass? I think Gendo's intention, anyhow, was for the souls to actually hang out in her Guf, but we see what Lilith does instead. (And somehow, her Chamber of Guf is, like, simultaneously inside her body and inside the Black Moon. Or something. Quantum Magic strikes again.)

Firstly, it seems likely that in the meantime since Yui's imbuement in Unit-01, Gendou has had a change of heart and now wishes to see Yui again, probably joining her in Unit-01.

(Have you read the CI, OMF...?)

Gendo's intention to "fuse with EVA-01" is equated to "reunion with Yui". Although just sitting around in her Guf or whatever doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun.

It's not even clear if this was a part of Yui, Fuyutsuki and Gendou's original plan. It's not even clear if Rei was either.

Unless Yui perfectly forecasted all of Gendo's "GODDAMIT YUI I CAN'T STAND TO LIVE WITHOUT YOU" bullshit, probably not.

In fact, Yui appeared to want to end up floating forever alone in the Eva

Well, we know she's not ALONE, since she has the Spear with her. So whoever says floating around alone is her intention is a big fat liar. ;;p

Even Fuyutsuki is surprised by its return, and he seemed most privy to Yui's wishes, perhaps more so than Gendou. So exactly what Yui's originally proposed scenario was is a matter of some debate.

Also fun is that the only two probable factors causing the Spear's (SPEAR SPEAR SPEAR SPEAR it's a SPEAR; the show said so, and you believe the show, RIGHT?) return would be traced to willful acts of Yui either way. (Either drawing the Spear herself, or "baiting" it.)

an apparent side plot involving interstellar procreation and proliferation

..."apparent"?

and it's pretty easy to see why we're still here after 11 years trying to figure things out.

Fanwankery is like masturbation. It never gets old.

I think a "lucid dream" interpretation is still on the cards.

"Lucid dreams"? Your constant reiteration of this phrase almost sounds like a scarcely concealed approval of my "special" NGE experience from last winter. Kekekeke.

Truly, the only way to interpret this batshit crazy show is to go batshit crazy yourself, if only for a little while.

And does anyone know how the Lance fits in with all of this? I know what it is, but what is its role in causing 2I/3I? It seems to be very important in that regard...

It is the faithful servant of plot contrivances and Pointless Religious Symbolism, and possibly testament to how crappy Adam et al.'s Official Seed Contracts actually were.

[SEELE 08]

SEELE's real plan was to create endless amounts of SEELE merchandise to sel to fanboys/fangirls, sadly they underestimated the coolness of NERV's logo. There are warehouses full of SEELE T-Shirts, action figures, hentai doujins, and posters that were never released to the public.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

This sounds vaguely like a repackaging of the "decreasing birthrate caused by metabiological competition with Angels" idea.

It's a paraphrasing if I'm thinking of the right thread. Do you have links for all of this by the way?

No. The AATF was Adam's. The other AATF was a translation that doesn't work as well.

What stopped Adam was primarily the fact that she blew up in a big way, and somehow managed to retrovert into an egg/embryo/whatever at the same time. (How? Quantum Magic!)

Ahh yes! Interesting. I've only just begun seriously watching all the platinium episodes in detail. But, surely the antarctic research team has something to do with Adam's failure to fully terraform the planet?

Did the "Ark" crap literally come to pass?

It seems the most likely explanation for why Third Impact both started and ended.... happily....

(Have you read the CI, OMF...?)

.........not yet. I've been terribly busy lately. As I recall, it wasn't finished the last time I looked into it, and there was some awfully strange things coming out at the time. I had RCB worries too. I've never gotten around to fully examining it yet.

"Lucid dreams"? Your constant reiteration of this phrase almost sounds like a scarcely concealed approval of my "special" NGE experience from last winter. Kekekeke.

To be honest Reichu, despite some of the more... speculative theories that came out of your time spent speaking in tounges, I think such a state of mind is going to be where most of our future understanding of Evangelion comes from. Just, don't get too carried away next time.

[Anonymous_Evafan]

But, surely the antarctic research team has something to do with Adam's failure to fully terraform the planet?

Nope!

D. In-Depth Information (Revised)

The other Seed of Life, Adam, was awakened by humankind. The Katsuragi Investigation Team frantically attempted to reseal her using the Spear of Longinus, but failed. Ultimately, through the phenomenon of the S2 Engine apparently going into overdrive by artificial means (details are vague due to the team's complete annihilation), it became that only an absolute catastrophe -- the resetting of all life due to the disappearance of A.T. Fields, and the construction of an ecosystem with an Adam base -- was prevented. This is called the Second Impact. The incident blew Adam completely apart.

(Have you read the CI, OMF...?)

.........not yet.

READ NOW! It's been finished for almost a year now. Put those fears of yours to rest, it's quite interesting stuff!

[Reichu]

But, surely the antarctic research team has something to do with Adam's failure to fully terraform the planet?

Nope!

Perhaps the team's mystical effort to suck out the "AATF energy" had some MARGINAL effect, at least.

It's a paraphrasing if I'm thinking of the right thread. Do you have links for all of this by the way?

I rarely remember which threads contain what. Most of the time I poke around with the search engine until I find what I need. "Metabiological resources" would be good key words for this particular item (if you are thinking of something I specifically said).

Did the "Ark" crap literally come to pass?

It seems the most likely explanation for why Third Impact both started and ended.... happily....

But she wouldn't be the Ark unless the souls boarded her, which they apparently didn't, since they burst out of the Black Moon (and Lilith's neck when her head falls off ) at the end, rather than spew out of Yui's palms for hours.

To be honest Reichu, despite some of the more... speculative theories

All Theories Are Speculation.

(I think that was meant to be an ironic statement.)

that came out of your time spent speaking in tounges,

I think such a state of mind is going to be where most of our future understanding of Evangelion comes from. Just, don't get too carried away next time.

I pray there won't be a next time, but, with the way medication and Reichu neurochemistry is, one can never be absolutely sure.

I hear that such a state of mind can actually be induced, but I don't think it's legal where I live.