Kimochi Warui

[Anonymous_Evafan]

i have always thought that the sand pyramid represented NERV HQ in someway. Correct me if im wrong, but i don't think you said anything about that in your analysis.

I always thought he was figuratively destroying NERV HQ because of his feelings of abandonment as a sort of allegory for how he was about to destroy the world.

I believe the word you're looking for is foreshadowing. And go figure we're off topic again!

[Sailor Star Dust]

I can't remember if it was this topic or one in chit-chat, but whatever. Here's what I don't get, so if this was explained already, somebody please point me to it! (Also, I'm sorry in advance if I said any of this already.)

OK, so Asuka treats Shinji like crap despite obviously having feelings for him (and Shinji liking her back). What throws me off is how in EoE, instead of getting a "You Prevert! Leech! I can't believe you!", etc, etc, we get "I'll even stand here and watch you." Now I guess it's because it's Pre-Instrumenality so because their minds are linked (25 & 26! ^_~) that's why they admit their feelings (one scene later: "I want to help you somehow. And, be with your forever."), but am I the only one thrown off by her 360 (or is that 180?) degree change in Asuka's behavior? The only thing I can think of is it going along with 25's "I don't wanna be alone!", but then why does she act so cold towards him in the coffee pot scene? Because he ignores her feelings? (Shinji askes for Asuka's help, she says not to do anything, he says only she can help him, calls him a liar while having that rejected look (see 22' mindrape scene!) on her face...)

At least once they're in reality again, that's not the case (her acting cold or lackthere of) but it still throws me off.... ;

[Mr. Tines]

despite obviously having feelings for him

<copypasta>
The feelings Asuka has are an emptiness in her heart and an itch in her knickers; feelings which get slightly confused, but are basically about finding victims to satiate her hollowness.

Things become a lot clearer when you stop trying to interpret her actions and intentions as other than wanting to selfishly sate her own needs.
</copypasta>

[Anonymous_Evafan]

despite obviously having feelings for him

<copypasta>
Things become a lot clearer when you stop trying to interpret her actions and intentions as other than wanting to selfishly sate her own needs.
</copypasta>

Did I imply I disagree with this? If so oops. Only I do think she also has feelings for him. For example she went to the hospital after Leliel and dropping her guard to tell Shinji Toji was in EVA-03 and getting blidesided for her trouble.

but am I the only one thrown off by her 360 (or is that 180?) degree change in Asuka's behavior?

She did that infront of Misato and Rei and instead of getting her way he went of in a rant. Something that had to be horrendously embarrassing to her and we know her thought process at that point.

Asuka:
You're being too easy on them! You're a man, aren't you?!
For their attack...
on my pride...
I'll pay them back ten times over!

It looks as if her emotions caused a cross between "you wont even hold me" and "Kaji's not here anymore".

[Sailor Star Dust]

@ Tines: BOTH Asuka & Shinji are selfish in terms of not always thinking about the other's needs, I'll give you that.

I'll use a lot of visuals to make my point in this post, mmhbien?

Good examples of selfishness between Shinji & Asuka would be the following:


Feel sorry for him, but at the same time...


He can't see what Asuka's needs are, that they aren't going to be the same as him.


Asuka can't see past Shinji not being emotionally receptive towards her...

But remind me again how having feelings for and caring about somebody else is selfish? And no, it's probably not every example of the two and their feelings, just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.
Such as this:



...To see that Shinji DOES help her. Prehaps her Pride's in the way?

*





*

*

*

(I really am starting to suspect this 22' train scene is a parallel to episode 5! Anyone out there agree?)





*I'm not saying jealousy is a good thing, but I think you get the point.

Seems like the good outweight the bad in this case, deshou? ;)

but am I the only one thrown off by her 360 (or is that 180?) degree change in Asuka's behavior?

She did that infront of Misato and Rei and instead of getting her way he went of in a rant. Something that had to be horrendously embarrassing to her and we know her thought process at that point.

You're being too easy on them! You're a man, aren't you?!
For their attack...on my pride...I'll pay them back ten times over!

It looks as if her emotions caused a cross between "you wont even hold me" and "Kaji's not here anymore".

Are we both talking about that EoE coffeepot scene? Or are you saying that's what she feels/thinks in that scene??

Whew, you wouldn't believe how long it took me just to type all that/figure out what scenes would best help make my point. -_-

[Anonymous_Evafan]

Are we both talking about that EoE coffeepot scene? Or are you saying that's what she feels/thinks in that scene??

The latter, being her feelings in the EoE coffeepot scene thus the 180.
P.S. you're not going to win Tines over on this no matter how hard you try

[Sailor Star Dust]

Oh, I know. I just wanted to finally do some of my own analyzing of something in the series I acutally comprehend. ^^;

And I still have a chance to enlighten any unsuspecting N00bs... :twisted:

[Mr. Tines]

But remind me again how having feelings for and caring about somebody else is selfish?

Asuka, at least, is very much like a cat - demanding of affection, but without being particularly affectionate. Her behaviour is much simpler to understand when it is looked at as being intended to fulfil her own needs, with a limited set of people for work with. In particular a man she wants but can't have; and a boy she could use, were he not useless.



I don't see any feeling on Asuka's part in this sequence beyond a convoluted "Fuck off!"; after Shinji's half-hearted excuse for a proposal gets treated with well deserved contempt, he goes into well trodden "me! me! me!" mode too.

And when Asuka says "You're only using me as an escape" I get a strong feeling, like in much of this scene, that she's talking about how she feels; the Shinji in her mind being much like herself.

[Anonymous_Evafan]

But remind me again how having feelings for and caring about somebody else is selfish?

Asuka, at least, is very much like a cat - demanding of affection, but without being particularly affectionate.

Bad analogy, I know several cats that are openly affectionate.

Her behaviour is much simpler to understand when it is looked at as being intended to fulfil her own needs, with a limited set of people for work with.

That doesn't mean that feelings aren't there. Just because something is easier doesn't necessicarily make it right.

I don't see any feeling on Asuka's part in this sequence beyond a convoluted "Fuck off!"

Who said it did?

And when Asuka says "You're only using me as an escape" I get a strong feeling, like in much of this scene, that she's talking about how she feels; the Shinji in her mind being much like herself.

Probably, Asuka is a very selfish person, as was Shinji during most of EoE.
It's hard to go against ones nature. That said, I again say it doesn't mean the feelings aren't there. Shinji only accepted his feelings for Asuka because it was easier than dealing with Rei and Misato, does that make them any less real? Even if he accepted them for the wrong reasons.

[Sailor Star Dust]

But remind me again how having feelings for and caring about somebody else is selfish?

Asuka, at least, is very much like a cat - demanding of affection, but without being particularly affectionate.

Bad analogy, I know several cats that are openly affectionate.

As do I, personally, because of my kitties. Two of the three (okay, one's not ours, but my stepsister's) purrs as soon as they see you. ^__^

Probably, Asuka is a very selfish person, as was Shinji during most of EoE. It's hard to go against ones nature. That said, I again say it doesn't mean the feelings aren't there. Shinji only accepted his feelings for Asuka because it was easier than dealing with Rei and Misato, does that make them any less real? Even if he accepted them for the wrong reasons.

Pin-pon! :P

[Anonymous_Evafan]

@Tines: From reading your replys I think you misunderstand my (possibly others) POV here, I'm saying Asuka does have feelings for him not that she's consciously acting upon, much less accepting them.

[Mr. Tines]

The whole series, the whole point of the series, is that it is about people who are unable to connect with each other. All their actions are about trying to fill the gaps in their own needy selves. If the first 24 episodes don't make that plain already, EoTV rams the point home with a sledgehammer.

Asuka has no obvious feelings for Shinji qua Shinji - only as something that might have given her the hugs and cuddles that she had been deprived of. The brief glimmer of such interest (her response to his 'cello playing) got quickly squelched because he did not know when to keep quiet and let actions speak louder than words.

[Sailor Star Dust]

Now you've lost me. :? Examples of this supposed truth with Shin-chan's behavoir??

[Mr. Tines]

Examples of this supposed truth with Shin-chan's behavoir??

Pretty much the whole series. "Is it alright for me to be here?" is the anxiety that underlies his continual approval-seeking. And when it seems like he's getting a positive answer, he still doesn't trust it (like in his back-chat to Misato in ep#4).

[Sailor Star Dust]

....You make my head hurt. /silliness.

[MaggotMaster]

MR. TINES THIS FORUM WOULDN'T BE THE SAME WITHOUT YOUR EXTREMELY GRIM OUTLOOK ON THE SERIES, ITS CHARACTERS, AND OF COURSE ITS ENDING.

However, you make some good points, but I person think that there was some attraction between Shinji and Asuka, even it was in great part hormone driven and both characters were either too wimpy or arrogant to accept it anyway.

That said, I really dislike shipping, the only instance of "TR00 LUV LOL!1!!" in the series IMO was between Kaji and Misato, the rest was just a bunch of misguided teenagers with mental illness and a huge lack of self-worth running around.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

That said, I really dislike shipping, the only instance of "TR00 LUV LOL!1!!" in the series IMO was between Kaji and Misato, the rest was just a bunch of misguided teenagers with mental illness and a huge lack of self-worth running around.

Maggotmaster, there are times when amid the maddened froths that emerge from your mind, there can be found nuggets of pure gold.

[Ornette]

I think someone from the epic Shinji/Asuka thread on ANF said it best:

To want to be loved by someone doesn't necessarily mean one actually loves that someone. Shinji and Asuka both simply wanted to be loved.

This is the simplest interpretation of the events in the series IMO. And like Maggot said, there isn't any real love between the 3 main characters, but they do seem to care about each other, in their own fucked up ways.

[Anonymous_Evafan]

Shinji did love Asuka, listen to Komm Süsser Tod very carefully:

I know, I know I've let you down
I've been a fool to myself
I thought that I could
live for no one else
But now through all the hurt & pain
It's time for me to respect
the ones you love
mean more than anything
So with sadness in my heart
(I) feel the best thing I could do
is end it all
and leave forever
what's done is done it feels so bad
what once was happy now is sad
I'll never love again
my world is ending

I wish that I could turn back time
cos now the guilt is all mine
can't live without
the trust from those you love
I know we can't forget the past
you can't forget love & pride
because of that, it's killing me inside

And he certainly believes he wants to be with her.

Shinji:
But that's just pretending - a self-intoxicating belief... like a prayer.
It can't possibly last forever.
Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me.
Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real.

Asuka through the series is certainly to narcissistic to truely love anyone. But her line at the end of EoTV gives me hope she's grown up.

Shinji:
I hate myself.

Shinji & Asuka & Misato:
But maybe I can learn to love myself.

[NAveryW]

Even if Komm Susser Tod did apply directly to Shinji's feelings (and the lyrics were different from the original ones that Anno wrote), love doesn't just mean erotic love, and even if it were that it wouldn't necessarily mean Asuka. It can be the love between family and friends, the "love" that he shared with people like Misato, Toji, Kinsuke, and Kaworu. Kaworu would probably be the strongest example.

I personally think he was too confused and separated to feel limerent toward anyone.