The Nature of Rei. Again.

[Knives [ANF]]

Alright, glad we are on the same page at last.

I think you and I are the only people who managed to follow that conversation
(I'm not saying others didn't ... but from Reichu's reactions to such discussions, I wouldn't doubt it )

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 04:46 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Instead of trying to mask my intellectual weaknesses, I parade them about. There is no shame in Neural Overload.

So... what the heck are all of those things you and Jinpun are throwing around that look like extracts from my high school algebra classes?

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 04:53 GMT

[Knives [ANF]]

So... what the heck are all of those things you and Jinpun are throwing around that look like extracts from my high school algebra classes?

This post by Jinpun (which quotes me) clearly defines all the symbols:
Link
Thanks for asking for clarification rather than yelling.
Yelling scares me

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 04:57 GMT

[Jinpun [ANF]]

haha, that whole discussion seems wasted. We came to a conclusion that we both already held. Which is basically that because Misato and Shinji said "Tadaima" and "Okaeri nasai" it does not mean that Rei and Lilith share the same soul and that we need some evidence to support the claim that Rei and Lilith share the same soul.

Basically, we cannot say that Rei and Lilith have the same soul, simply because Rei says "Tadaima" and Lilith says "Okaeri nasai." We need some evidence (thats what that whole [3r] thing is) to make that conclusion. Evidence which I fealt was cleary shown here in your (Reichu's) post #9.

What I was saying earlier is that deciding on what that evidence is is where we are differing. Enough evidence for some may be the simple fact that Rei is floating in front of Lilith and they say "Tadaima" and "Okaeri nasai." This is not wrong, you are free to feel however you want. IMO, the evidence shown by Reichu in post #9 is enough for me (upon watching that scene and hearing them say "Tadaima" and "Okaeri nasai") to say, Rei and Lilith have the same soul.

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 05:30 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

I agree that taking the Rei-Lilith "Tadaima"/"Okaerinasai" exchange as the only proof one needs for the Rei-Lilith connection is flawed. Without straying into your strange and foreign world of logic and pseudomathematic formulas* (my brain simply doesn't process such things), I posited earlier that, logically, any Lilim returning to Lilith would be, in a sense, "returning home", because Lilith is their progenitor.

Except that I find it hard to ignore the fact Rei is, shall we say, a special case, i.e. not really to be included in the general class of "Lilim", insofar as she has been engaged in some highly unusual behavior, like generating a huge AT Field, shedding her arm and growing it back a minute later, and, at the point when she is uttering that line, levitating. Somehow, I find the argument that "I'm home" doesn't necessarily have any special relevance to Rei in particular to be singularly unconvincing. It reminds me of the outrageous line of argument that Fuzzy used to try to explain away Kaworu's "You're like me. We have both taken the Lilim's form as our bodies to live on this planet" by claiming "So have you, and I, and so has everyone else; we've ALL 'taken the Lilim's form as our bodies to live on this planet'. It doesn't mean anything special..." (If I had had him right here in front of me just then, I probably would have punched him in the nose.) I'm starting to find such attempts to "deconstruct" the plain meaning of words quite tiresome. "Tadaima/Okaerinasai" represents the climax of a litany of hints and clues regarding Rei's Big Secret that Anno has been planting throughout the series; and it is perfectly obvious to me (as per Wigs' argument regarding the special connotation of those words), that the idea is that Rei is "returning to where she belongs" in a sense that is entirely peculiar to her alone...

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 05:44 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Ah, I forgot about the big-arse A.T. Field in my post #9. There are also your idea (post #10) about the "audience" for Kaworu's monologue ("Adam, the existence that is our mother, blah blah blah").

Additional ways in which Rei is obviously "weird", although we, as the audience, have to decide what the hell it all means...

#24: How the hell did Rei get here?



Only way I see it possible is if she used this little trick.

And perhaps you can elaborate sometime on what exactly this means, Shin-seiki, but Rei, for apparently no obvious reason, decides to suddenly fall apart. Gendo says that her A.T. Field can no longer hold her shape... but why? This is long before things start going apeshit crazy.

And perhaps you could elaborate on possible connections between the tank bodies, who chunk-ify when their destrudo is released...



(...as opposed to us normal folk, who seem to do this instead...)

...and what happens to GNR when she keels over:



I'm not sure if this comes along with Rei's ATF acting up in #26', but this tends not to happen no matter how heavy the petting is. (Lucky for Shinji back in episode #05, ne?)

Similarly, even if you somehow manage to get your arm lodged in a chick's navel, she won't demonstrate a capacity to neatly separate and assimilate your appendage and subsequently regenerate the same limb that enigmatically detatched itself minutes before.

Yes... there is something very fux0red up about this girl indeed. Her Lilith-esque body properties (which were nowhere to be seen until #26', oddly enough) seem to imply that she is made of the same 'matter' as Lilith, which is inconsistent when one considers:

(A) Rei eats the food of mortals, made out of the matter of mortals. If you are made out of something different, this obviously can't work.

(B) EVA-01 we KNOW to be made out of 'Lilith stuff', yet her physical properties are consistent with those of the other Evas -- flesh and bones as opposed to, well... marshmallow.

As we've discussed before, Anno did have some 'big secret' planned for Rei from the start, but he wasn't quite sure what it was going to be until later.

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 07:43 GMT

[Soluzar [ANF]]

I
Simply because I don't know the answer (or don't seem to know the answer) doesn't mean I can't point out what I know to be wrong (assuming that I at least support it with reasons for why it is wrong [which in the case of the "Return Home" argument, I have done]).

OK, that's fine. Now answer some of the other reasons. There are plenty that you have not answered, and have even said that you will not answer, until the time is right, for you.

As to the issue of why you feel it is "not polite." I'm sorry if it came across that way. But my intention has never been to stir up animosity or anger.
All I have done is pointed to where I find flaws in what is presented to me as evidence.
What is returned is not discussion into those matters, but accusations that I'm intending to be unpleasant or cause problems.
This is not the case at all. I — like you more than likely — am only seeking to clarify.

In as far as goes for any unpleasantness in my post, you may notice that I was not especially rude, or unpleasant. A little curt, I will admit to, but basically civil. I even managed to raise what I think is a valid point for discussion. And yet, you ignored my point, and laughed at me. Like most people, I'm not unable to laugh at myself, and don't mind a fairly large amount of good-natured humour at my own expense, but your reply struck me as unpolite. I posted my response in the heat of the moment following that.
That said, I'm fine with it, and I'm just going to stay out of this one and let the big brains handle it. I'm not qualified for this debate.

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 07:43 GMT

[Knives [ANF]]

That said, I'm fine with it, and I'm just going to stay out of this one and let the big brains handle it. I'm not qualified for this debate.

Just as I would not want others to feel that they cannot speak up for fear of "causing a ruckus and thereby being subject to banning", I also would not wish to lose your input. You see things differently and through different means. That is always valuable to discussion.

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 07:55 GMT

[Knives [ANF]]

*snip*

Similarly, even if you somehow manage to get your arm lodged in a chick's navel, she won't demonstrate a capacity to neatly separate and assimilate your appendage:



...and subsequently regenerate the same limb that enigmatically detatched itself minutes before.

*snip*

Yes... there is something very fux0red up about this girl indeed. Her Lilith-esque body properties (which were nowhere to be seen until #26', oddly enough) seem to imply that she is made of the same 'matter' as Lilith, which is inconsistent when one considers:

(A) Rei eats the food of mortals, made out of the matter of mortals. If you are made out of something different, this obviously can't work.

(B) EVA-01 we KNOW to be made out of 'Lilith stuff', yet her physical properties are consistent with those of the other Evas -- flesh and bones as opposed to, well... marshmallow.
*image moved*

In regards to the arm regeneration, we see Yui do this with Zeruel .
(As for why ... I speculate she allowed her arm to fall off so that she could take Adam from Gendo ... only speculation ...)

And as for (B), this image (now moved directly below (B) ) clearly shows bone ...

And as for (A) ... could you elaborate? I don't see how it follows that if Rei is made from something else that she therefore can't eat food.

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 20:04 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

but your reply struck me as unpolite.

That was my impression, as well.

That said, I'm fine with it, and I'm just going to stay out of this one and let the big brains handle it. I'm not qualified for this debate.

...Apparently, neither am I.

Just as I would not want others to feel that they cannot speak up for fear of "causing a ruckus and thereby being subject to banning",

Ano.... You did read my post here, I hope?

In regards to the arm regeneration, we see Yui do this with Zeruel.

Yeah, but we don't see any of the other 'mortals' doing it. I was using it as an example of why Rei is weird.

(As for why ... I speculate she allowed her arm to fall off so that she could take Adam from Gendo ... only speculation ...)

And if her arm wasn't missing, she would somehow be unable to lop off Gendo's arm?

And as for (B), this image (now moved directly below (B) ) clearly shows bone ...

I'd venture to guess that Lilith has bones as well, but there is still that 'marshmallowy' (for lack of a better work) body composition going on. See the comparison pics I added between Lil and EVA-01, above... Their bodies behave quite differently to these objects stuck through their palms. It should be noted that when the harpies are 'assimilated' by Rei, their bodies take on 'marshmallow' properties as well:



(Look at where the Spear is exiting the back. And ignore the captions, please.)

And as for (A) ... could you elaborate? I don't see how it follows that if Rei is made from something else that she therefore can't eat food.

We eat food to replenish our biomass. Everything that we eat has to be composed of the same basic stuff that our bodies our made out of (not to mention be capable of being digested by our system), otherwise assimilation is impossible. Try eating scrap metal. And at least THAT is made out of the same type of matter that we are. If Rei is made out of 'Lilith stuff', her body is made out of an entirely different type; therefore, her body would not be able to assimilate the biomass from ramen noodles or cucumber sushi. And by all indications, Rei is a functionally human entity (weird stuff in #26' nonwithstanding), and if she didn't eat, she would croak.

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 20:22 GMT

[Knives [ANF]]

That was my impression, as well.

Well, I did apologize for that one instance.
And yet, if you only sense the "unpoliteness" (which if finding the irony in his post constitutes being unpolite) in my post and not in his to which i was responding ... well, it doesn't matter. It's past.

Quote: Originally Posted by Knives Just as I would not want others to feel that they cannot speak up for fear of "causing a ruckus and thereby being subject to banning",

Ano.... You did read my post here, I hope?
Yes. I not only read it, I was addressing it with this quote.

And if her arm wasn't missing, she would somehow be unable to lop off Gendo's arm?

Consveration of mass perhaps ? (speculation)
>EDIT
In other words ... where would she put his arm after lopping it off unless she got rid of an equal amount of matter first ...
>End EDIT

We eat food to replenish our biomass. Everything that we eat has to be composed of the same basic stuff that our bodies our made out of (not to mention be capable of being digested by our system), otherwise assimilation is impossible. Try eating scrap metal. And at least THAT is made out of the same type of matter that we are. If Rei is made out of 'Lilith stuff', her body is made out of an entirely different type; therefore, her body would not be able to assimilate the biomass from ramen noodles or cucumber sushi. And by all indications, Rei is a functionally human entity (weird stuff in #26' nonwithstanding), and if she didn't eat, she would croak.

.. But isn't all plant life supposed to be from Lilith too? Or at least ... isn't that what some people speculate?
In which case ... it should sort of follow that she (Rei) can eat it.

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 10:59 GMT

[tv33 [ANF]]

We eat food to replenish our biomass. Everything that we eat has to be composed of the same basic stuff that our bodies our made out of (not to mention be capable of being digested by our system), otherwise assimilation is impossible. Try eating scrap metal. And at least THAT is made out of the same type of matter that we are. If Rei is made out of 'Lilith stuff', her body is made out of an entirely different type; therefore, her body would not be able to assimilate the biomass from ramen noodles or cucumber sushi. And by all indications, Rei is a functionally human entity (weird stuff in #26' nonwithstanding), and if she didn't eat, she would croak.

I know that the Angels (An Adam based form of life) are made up of that different kind of matter, but does it say in the series that Lilith is also made of a different variety of matter then us?

She is obviously different then us (Being all squishy and such), but the Angels also differ from one to another and are still made up of that same kind of matter.

Consveration of mass perhaps ? (speculation)
>EDIT
In other words ... where would she put his arm after lopping it off unless she got rid of an equal amount of matter first ...
>End EDIT .

I don't think a hand is equal to an arm...

I tend to think Rei's AT-Field was falling apart in anticipation of what was about to happen. She knows (On an almost biological or instinctual level) what is going on. Like the way she wakes up in the middle of the night and knows to set out for NERVE HQ. And the various other odd things she does.

So perhaps it was a natural reaction to what was coming. Like when a dog's mouth begins to salivate when it sees something it wants to eat, to use a crude example. (I was thinking of using a more X-rated example, but decided to refrain. )

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 13:53 GMT

[Soluzar [ANF]]

Just as I would not want others to feel that they cannot speak up for fear of "causing a ruckus and thereby being subject to banning", I also would not wish to lose your input. You see things differently and through different means. That is always valuable to discussion.

Since you insist, I do have one question that I believe to be key to this matter.. Let's put all the unpleasantness behind us, shall we? I'm sorry if my posts offended you, you've already apologised. We're both fine, I presume. On with the show.

Simple question for you: Is your main objection to the notion that Rei has the soul of Lileth the fact that this would require Lileth's soul to be in multiple places at once? I did already ask you this, but I dare say it got lost in the overall noise, so I ask you again, now.

Fear not, if you don't choose to answer, I'm not going to use it as an excuse to bash your theory again. I just think that it's a point which still demands some exploration. Unless it's been done to death already.

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 15:10 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

And perhaps you can elaborate sometime on what exactly this means, Shin-seiki, but Rei, for apparently no obvious reason, decides to suddenly fall apart. Gendo says that her A.T. Field can no longer hold her shape... but why? This is long before things start going apeshit crazy.

It is interesting how you posted all the images that come to mind when I contemplate this issue (great minds think alike, and all ). I have been kicking around the idea that Rei, despite her human appearance, is, like Kaworu, at some basic level not like the rest of us. I had a theory that the bit where she looses her arm (which may be related to the way the clones fall apart, rather than dissolve), may be intended to suggest that her AT Field interfaces with her physical form in a way that has more in common with the Angels and Evas than it does with the Lilim (does the fact that the Evas, etc, don't lose their physical form during 3I have any relevance here?) One possible hint that occurs early on in the series is this scene from #04 (I was saving this for the #04 commentary, but might as well trot it out now):








What I'm wondering is whether that has anything to do with this bit in the next episode:






This, of course, is from the scene where Ritsuko tells us that "We do know that the Angel is composed of a type of matter characterized by both particulate and wave properties, like light." The words "like light" kind of jump out at me, as one property of light is that it actually constituted of different wave-lengths that are represented by the color spectrum:


The question is, are they trying to tell us something, then, with this?


How does this all relate to the fact that the images of Kaworu and Rei precede immediately the title "Angels" in the OP, I wonder...

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 15:15 GMT

[tv33 [ANF]]

^How the hell do you notice this stuff!?

Considering these things are one episode apart and are both are presented by Ritsuko in typical techno babble fashion, you might just be on to something. Too bad we don't see the other pilots undergo a similar scan to see what they look like.

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 15:30 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Yes. I not only read it, I was addressing it with this quote.

I was trying to say earlier that causing a ruckus in and of itself does not subject one to banning. (Sharp-kun is really quite lenient.) Being a sufficient jerk does, hence my various comments about treading more lightly (I might have used to phrase incorrectly :P ), turning down the hostility/testosterone, etc...

Consveration of mass perhaps ? (speculation)
>EDIT
In other words ... where would she put his arm after lopping it off unless she got rid of an equal amount of matter first ...
[b]>End EDIT

Humans have the capacity to gain mass. Quite a bit, in fact...

.. But isn't all plant life supposed to be from Lilith too? Or at least ... isn't that what some people speculate?
In which case ... it should sort of follow that she (Rei) can eat it.

All carbon-based life is supposed to be from her. I have pointed out this problem before -- how can we originate from a lifeform that is made out of an entirely different form of matter? That Lilith is made out of 'angel stuff' is never stated, of course, but it can be indirectly extrapolated by the fact that her daughter, EVA-01, is able to assimilate (or otherwise devour) the stuff:





And Lilith herself must be made from some very strange stuff indeed to be able to pull off stunts like this:



Then, we are talking about the 'Shekinah' version, but Lilith's very ability to 'merge' with Adam could be evidence that they are made of the 'same stuff'. Then again, she 'eats' Rei, as well... And Gendo had been hoping to merge into a conglomerate entity with Adam and Rei, and then with Lilith. So there must be some allowances for the different types of 'stuff' to interact, and I'm babbling over nothing. I'm still interested, however, in pointlessly theorizing about how this might be possible.

I tend to think Rei's AT-Field was falling apart in anticipation of what was about to happen. She knows (On an almost biological or instinctual level) what is going on. Like the way she wakes up in the middle of the night and knows to set out for NERVE HQ. And the various other odd things she does.

Still, what explains Gendo's comment? "Your AT Field can no longer hold your shape."

BTW, tv, you put me as the author of one of Knives' comments. GAH!

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 16:39 GMT

[Mr. Tines [ANF]]

Yes... there is something very fux0red up about this girl indeed. Her Lilith-esque body properties (which were nowhere to be seen until #26', oddly enough) seem to imply that she is made of the same 'matter' as Lilith, which is inconsistent when one considers:

This was at the root of my initial assumption that Lilith was the source of her flesh, and the form and identity were imposed upon that matrix - but one could, I suppose, argue that the soul is now impressing its qualities on the body.

(A) Rei eats the food of mortals, made out of the matter of mortals. If you are made out of something different, this obviously can't work.

Assuming that the angelic equivalents of electrons and protons share the same charge as their normal equivalents, then it could be substitutable by normal matter - we know the angel-matter supports an essentially identical biochemistry. However that would mean that Rei was increasingly composed of normal matter.

I wonder exactly what the indication of her constant medication and her vegetarianism were meant to hint at, whether if there is some implicit assumption that along with souls there is some sort of élan vital in various (ex-)living matter.

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 18:43 GMT

[Mr. Tines [ANF]]

This, of course, is from the scene where Ritsuko tells us that "We do know that the Angel is composed of a type of matter characterized by both particulate and wave properties, like light."

Also, alas, like everything else in the universe. Electrons, protons, neutrons, even whole atoms or ions all show wave-like properties in the same way that photons do (the obvious one being diffraction effects like the double-slit experiment).

"Like light" refers to but the most blatant example of this duality, one that was already being argued in Newton's time if not before, and kept going as experiments were posed and tried to settle the argument - because if you perform the right experiment you get the answer you want. Particle number and phase (where the wave crests are) are dual in the same way that position and momentum (the original Heisenberg where or how fast but not both together), or energy and duration are.

That's why I tend to wonder about things like "mis-tuned" matter (perhaps from another universe with subtly different physical laws?) with unusual underlying constants, or other forms of exotic particles not normally bound into stable configurations, as the underlying nature of Angelic matter.

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 18:57 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

However that would mean that Rei was increasingly composed of normal matter.

I wonder if Anno-tachi ever even THOUGHT of these matters.

I wonder exactly what the indication of her constant medication and her vegetarianism were meant to hint at, whether if there is some implicit assumption that along with souls there is some sort of élan vital in various (ex-)living matter.

I don't think we ever figured the medication part out... Or the significance of the vegetarianism, for that matter.

As for the "élan vital" bit... We know that in NGE (I regurgitate this point a whole lot) that the soul lingers in the body for some indeterminate amount of time following death. As I've hopefully managed to demonstrate, the ATF is not necessary to maintain physical form -- but getting rid of it is probably a necessary prerequisite for splat-ification -- so the soul would not need to remain simply to preserve the body's shape; it just stays there because Anno made it so.

Exactly how this post-mortem soul stuff works is completely beyond the scope of what NGE covers... Kaworu is an interesting case, though. Being human-bodied, I seriously doubt that he had any kind of core whatsoever, and his soul just inhabited his body in general. It is possible to deduce that his soul must have lingered in the only part of Kaworu's body that wasn't destroyed, his head, and from here it was transferred back into Adam's body (in Gendo's hand). So will the soul automatically 'live on' no matter what part of one's body is left intact -- a head, a foot, an arm, etc.? Does that mean that rather than inhabiting some definite location on the human body, the soul is, in a sense, inhabits the entire body all at once? What happens when the body is dismembered, as per Misato?

If it is at all significant, they show Rei melting down her upper torso, which is consistent with the traditional idea of the soul or 'heart' inhabiting the chest region:



This idea is primarily reinforced by the various humanoid divinities in the show. When Rei returns to Lilith, it is to the chest, roughly the solar plexus region:



The solar plexus -- or the homologous locale, anyway -- is also where all of the giant Angelic humanoids have their cores and, ergo, their souls:









I wonder what pertinence this has, if any, to the Case of Kaworu's Disembodied Head?



Getting off-topic... Again.

That's why I tend to wonder about things like "mis-tuned" matter (perhaps from another universe with subtly different physical laws?) with unusual underlying constants, or other forms of exotic particles not normally bound into stable configurations, as the underlying nature of Angelic matter.

Problem is, Adam and Lilith were both produced by the same dudes, whose intent was apparently to seed our universe with two incompatible varieties of life.

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 19:59 GMT

[Mr. Tines [ANF]]

Problem is, Adam and Lilith were both produced by the same dudes, whose intent was apparently to seed our universe with two incompatible varieties of life.

I don't see that as incompatible with their coming here from some other cosm (perhaps as a mission to fill all possible worlds with life). But at this point we are far, far beyond data to either confirm or deny.

Originally posted on: 18-Nov-2004, 08:57 GMT